Looking at the map ( http://telerover.com/rockets/NCR/NCR_NPawneePropertyOwners.pdf), east is actually relatively clear. To the north is the property people kept hitting last year.

Chris, I've got a 50 pound bag of lead shot we can dump in your rocket to keep the altitude down.

Edward

Looking at the map ( http://telerover.com/rockets/NCR/NCR_NPawneePropertyOwners.pdf), east is actually relatively clear. To the north is the property people kept hitting last year.

Indeed. The property to the North is outside of the Pawnee National Grasslands boundary. I have worked with the owner several times to recover rockets, and make no mistake about it, there is nothing public about his property. Joe and I have his number in case a rocket lands over there. You can look at Google maps to see the boundary of the national grassland. I have found the Konshack maps to be misleading in this regard. The Northern boundary depends on how far East you are, but due North of the site it's not very far away at all.

Everything within landing distance E, S, and W of our site is within the national grasslands, at least. But I'm a little fuzzy on what that means, exactly, for rocket recovery. On the national grassland, is everything technically owned by all of us taxpayers, and leased to the ranchers? What about where there are houses & buildings, etc? Do we need special permission to recover rockets on leased land? Is the parcel of land that we launch from equivalent to other parcels on the South side of County Road 122? Who is leasing the part of it that we launch from?

I am in the process of making a map from public records of all the parcels surrounding the launch site. As a realtor, ( among many things), if you lease a piece of property, you have property rights, and people are not allowed to come onto the property in your possession without permission or they are trespassing. Same as if you lease a house or a building, or anything else. It does not change just because it is open land.

There are leases and then there are grazing leases. In the first case, they pay for exclusive use of the land - that doesn't mean you're trespassing (though most seem to think so), it just means you're likely pissing them off and the local USFS and Sheriff will likely side with the rancher. They won't win in court, but you'll still have to deal with the hassle.

In the second case, they pay a per-head fee (usually on the basis of a cow/calf pair) for the time that the animals are grazing that particular parcel. In most cases this is just a few months a year (our launch site is such a parcel). Again, most of the ranchers seem to think this gives them exclusive rights - at least while their livestock is present. In this case, you'll piss off the rancher and if they bitch to USFS, it just is another ass-pain we present to them. Fortunately the rancher who has a grazing lease on our launch site is used to us and aware of our use. He works with USFS and indirectly with the club - we have rescheduled launches or shut down flight operations on his behalf when he moves cattle.

In either event, it is absolutely imperative that you ask permission FIRST for the lands 1m or more east or west of the pads, whether N or S of Rd 122. The land north of the ORV area is most definitely private land and I can't count the number of times some of us have wandered about on that land. We've been VERY fortunate that the owner hasn't caught us - to be honest. I can recall a flight I helped recover that went well over the bluffs (I won't say who's bird it was) where we would most definitely have been guilty of trespassing had we been caught. Even a mile south of the bluffs is private.

One new factor may be the drilling company that has just set up shop. Those folks tend to be even more pissy about trespassing, regardless of the legalities. Better safe than sorry. We have the best launch site in Colorado and any alternative we might find would be hours away. We should be like Ceasar's Wife - beyond suspicion and absolutely place good relations with adjoining landowners far above our own immediate need.

Warren,

I really don't see where the problem is to the east, and to the west, there's a single, solitary, tiny patch of land. To the north, there's quite a bit of private property, and to the south, there's some, but to the east, at least according to the map linked above, there is no private property for 5 miles east of the launch site (in roughly the region that goes from CR-122 to about 1.5 miles north of CR-122). Is the map wrong? In addition, based on the same map, the great majority of the land within a 3 mile circle of the pads is fine - with the largest exceptions to the north-northeast and to the southeast. I agree that we shouldn't enter any private land, but unless the map is grossly mistaken, it seems like past 1 mile is fine in nearly every direction.

Once someone gathers all the parcel data, it might be handy to compile it into GPS coordinates, so those walking around will know when they're near a boundary. I'm assuming most have fences, but I'd bet not all do.

-Ken

I think that map is slightly outdated, and even though it says US Government or State of Colorado it gets leased out to someone, and like Warren said they are protective of it. I can understand why when their livelihood is raising cattle. It might bode well for us to have people walk out and stick posts in the ground with a colored flag to indicate boundaries. Not everyone has a GPS and it is a more visual reminder.

Edward

Absolutely. It would be good to have an up to date map of where exactly the boundaries are, and who owns the land beyond each (or is leasing it).

There is some land that is listed in public records as owned by U S A, and they are located in Denver. We would have to talk to those people and see if they would give us information about who the property is leased to and contact info. The same for the State of Colorado. There is also a piece of property where the owner is listed as the United States of America, (different ownership than U S A) and the address is in old town Fort Collins. The rest of the property owners are listed by mailing address and I can probably get phone numbers for a bunch of them also. We could see about sending them letters and asking for permission so we have a get out of jail card. Is there a way to put an attachment to the forum so I could post names, addresses, parcel numbers, and maps? As far as what Warren was saying about grazing leases, when I leased a ranch that was about 3 sq. miles, I prosecuted trespassers and went after them because they were hunting on the property and poaching. Putting my wife, my kids, and my livestock in danger. Larimer County Sheriffs Dept. and the DA supported me through the whole thing. Maybe I technically did not have the authority to do so, this I am uncertain, but I was more than encouraged by the LEO.

The land north of the ORV area is most definitely private land and I can't count the number of times some of us have wandered about on that land. We've been VERY fortunate that the owner hasn't caught us - to be honest. I can recall a flight I helped recover that went well over the bluffs (I won't say who's bird it was) where we would most definitely have been guilty of trespassing had we been caught. Even a mile south of the bluffs is private.

As a matter of fact, I did get caught 2 years ago, apologized, and pleaded ignorance. I showed him the rocket I recovered and he expressed some interest in rocketry, and in the performance of the rockets and the electronics. I invited him to watch our launches, and I left on good terms, with his phone number so that we could call ahead for a rocket retrieval. No general exploring allowed. Last year, when a rocket went onto his property on Friday of MHM, I gave him a call and we got permission to retrieve. On Saturday, it was windier, and a couple of rockets went onto his property again. I called again, and this time he was pissed that we were flying with the wind as strong as it was, and expressed that he thought we were landing too many rockets on his property. After that, we disallowed any high flights that day, due to the unfavorable winds (N to south at low altitude, and south to North at high altitude.) If any rockets go that way this weekend, we need to call first. Joe and I have his number.

Some of you may recall the Beyond Earth Enterprises project - an all metal rocket that flew on a Russell O motor a number of years ago. It successfully deployed a 28' chute (might have been bigger) at apogee and drifted 4 or 5 miles east. I eventually found the thing thanks to a pilot who emailed me and after securing permission from the rancher, I walked out to it, packed up the chute and took GPS coords.

I ransomed those coordinates to the BEE folks and told them to ask permission before retrieving it. (Ransom was $250 - $50 for me and my gas, $200 donation to NCR for the hassle factor since they weren't entirely respectful of the club in the process of using our launch site and launch equipment). Those idiots immediately drove out to the bird and retrieved it without permission from the landowner. It was on that parcel of private land 4-5 miles east of our launch site and that rancher leases the surrounding USFS parcels. To say he was pissed was putting it mildly. I got a call from him and I believe a few other folks got an earful as a result.

Again, I will just reiterate what I said - act as if we are there on their sufference - ASK FIRST, even if you're sure, it can't hurt and it sure could help our relations with the surrounding landowners. While you may be fully in the right, don't take it for granted or act as if your rights trump theirs. If they complain to USFS, regardless of who is legally in the right, eventually they might just consider us a pain in the ass they could easily do without. Also, remember that these ranchers are neighbors - they ALL talk to one another.

Very good advice. Maybe there is something we can do besides staying off of their land or lease that might favorably endear them to us and maybe we will be welcomed eagerly. You know sugar instead of vinegar?

A couple more thoughts on this. We may want to invite Bob (the landowner to the N) over to see the launch, and have a cold beer at the ready in case he's interested --not that we would drink while the launch is going on, of course--

Do we have phone numbers for any of the other ranchers?

Though, since it is Memorial Day weekend, I wonder how many ranchers enjoy getting interrupted by rockets on their property during the holiday weekend (do ranchers get vacation time? 🙂 )

Edward