Hopefully Sponge Bob on all five motors and a couple of other surprises.

Boosted dart with Mr.Altitude ( A.K.A John Wilke)
38mm altitude attempt
And Ex rockets

*Wish list of what i wanted to fly*
75mm minimum diameter rocket
Jayhawk on two L motors

Boosted dart with Mr.Altitude ( A.K.A John Wilke)
38mm altitude attempt
And Ex rockets

*Wish list of what i wanted to fly*
75mm minimum diameter rocket
Jayhawk on two L motors

You know, when we look at the world and wonder if the next generation is going to "do right," posts like this say YES, we're covered. I really wanna see that Jayhawk on two L's in a drag race with Chris's Deuce, with two L's!

38mm altitude attempt

In which motor class?

Details, we want details!

two actually- J-570 and J-350

Kyle, I can't wait to see what you and John have cooked up. Knowing John, you've done most of the work and he's done the mentoring and I'm sure you have a helluva project to fly. If you have a successful flight, I guarantee you front page coverage with a photo on the website... Of course, that means someone will have to actually get a clear photo of this thing taking off at warp or better speed.

Unfortunately, due to the death of my mother-in-law a couple weeks ago followed by one of the nastiest cases of the flu I've had in over 20 years, my L3 cert is probably going to be delayed until June or July. I will still be flying a 54mm minimum diameter project to a projected 28K and several other projects including a 4" project on an L1300 and another 4" project on a K555SK. If I get the time, I might even have to defend my E altitude record from Adrian and set a new Tripoli F altitude record - just to keep Mr. Wilke on his toes. My skirt is hiked up John and I've got the last two F32 motors in existence...

Warren.

Yes indeed, Kyle is doing most of the heavy lifting (literally and figuratively) as he built a booster and I am recycling an old rocket into a dart. I bought a miter saw (I now own something like 4? tools) and as soon as I get the critical stuff from Kyle I'm going to chop "Sandbagger" back. We'll use a K1440 from Tim at GLR and see what happens.

Warren, I'm sorry to hear your L3 news - I will try to make it out when you cert. Mayhaps you can bring the goods to MHM so we can at least see how it is coming together?

L330 shot - we need a window first 😉 If we do get a window, I hope to fly "Casey Mae" for an M altitude attempt.

F32s... sorry, dude - they went out of certification on 12.31.07 😯

Yeah, but they can still be flown at Research launches and although I might not be able to take a TRA altitude record, I will be able to take the NCR record.

W

although I might not be able to take a TRA altitude record, I will be able to take the NCR record.

Assuming that somebody doesn't use an F10 to put the NCR and Tripoli record out of reach of an F32 first. 🙂 I heard that Mike Konschack was working on such a bird, and I'm still hoping to give it another try. Work is starting to get into a really intense phase, and I'm trying to finish prototyping a couple of models of altimeters, so who knows what I'll get done by then. A G record attempt will likely be a higher priority for me since I think the stability won't be as tricky and I have Ellis G37s burning holes in my pockets. ...and I've already started building it by filling a 24mm nosecone full of lead shot and epoxy.

Adrian,

The F32 is the contest killer motor - it is a 24mm 100% F motor and less than a dozen newtons shy of a G. ALL world F altitude records have been set with either the F32 or its sister motor, the F72. As I said, these are 24mm motors and no matter what the total newton seconds of the F10, as a 29mm motor, there is no way for an F10 to even be in the ballpark of what you can do with an F32.

I know you have ambitions of an TRA record and you could very well get one on the F10 as it is the largest F motor still certified - but you can't beat an optimized 24mm bird with a 29mm bird - the advantage in Cd is just far too great for the 24mm bird. I was going to do this late last year and dilly-dallied my way out of flying this motor while it's certification was still good. It is a lapsed motor though so it is doubtful that TRA would accept it as a new world record - William Inman set the last 3 F records on the F32 and F72.

If I really want to be mean about it, I can wait until warmer weather and fly it at TC's site in Hartsel with a base altitude of over 8000' MSL to start with - with a probably 20% advantage on the NCR North Site.

W

Warren

The F32 is a good motor. If I had to choose between it and the F10, I'd choose the f32 because the F10 needs gargantuan fins to be stable, and it's really hard to make them perfectly straight and get the whole non-motor mass around the optimum 40 grams. The mass-optimized F32 and F10 designs both have about the same acceleration off the pad, so they should both be about the same for weathercocking susceptibility. When I make realistic designs in Rocksim customized for each motor, both top out around 8800 feet.

But if you think the F32 always has lower drag losses, it's because you forgot that V squared is just as important as D squared. And more so, because Cd goes way up when the F32-based rocket is transsonic.

Go to Rocksim and plot your rocket's drag force (not Cd). In my 8800-foot F32 design, the drag tops peaks 12 N. The drag force of my F10 rocket never gets above 8 N, though it stays high longer. (7 seconds above 4N vs. 2 seconds above 4 N for the F32). The total integrated drag loss for the F32 is lower, but the gravity losses are higher because it's so much heavier at its optimal mass, and it takes longer to get to apogee. So all in all, it will be a fair and interesting competition, and may the best rocket win.

And I'll just pretend I didn't hear you threatening Hartsel after all the discussion about that on the other thread. 🙄

Don't feel bad Adrian - Wilke not only threatened me with it, he went and did it for the current G world record. I still have 3 or 4 of those G55 motors, again a 24mm, and if TC actually gets their waiver expansion, I'll start thinking about going after his G record later this year. The birds are already built and pretty much ready to fly except for the altimeter.

One would have to see the design and flight profile intended to comment about the likelihood of going transonic and that bird has never even been seen by my good friend John except in the E version. My E, F and G altitude birds do not break Mach - they come close, but don't break it. I won't tell you what they sim to until after they fly. There are a few tricks employed in the design that I doubt anyone but Wilke or perhaps Inman have thought of. By the way, they have very small fins.

Given that these motors are out of cert and my focus this year is on much, much larger birds - I'm in no rush to fly them. Good luck on your attempts - even more luck to you on finding them after the flight. With the weight optimization, I had to leave out the tracking transmitter on all but the G version and after losing 2 earlier builds of them a couple years ago, I got kind of gun-shy about flying them again and losing yet another altimeter.

W

Warren, two areas of comment. First of all, the Hartsel site does *not* offer a 20% advantage. I have flown my G and H record rockets on the same motors at both venues. My Hartsel "G" shot was 9% better vs. PNG - but it was flown under utterly ideal conditions at Hartsel and utterly wretched conditions at the north site. Those who saw my boost at the north site will also remember the c-slot motor eroded the nozzle, and the north site boost corkscrewed badly. Since I knew I was moving and the motor cert was expiring, I flew at the N site under pretty substantial winds.

I also flew the H rocket at both sites, and the difference was 4%. The Hartsel boost was so razor straight, I looked at Elvis and said "if that don't get it (the TRA record) then I don't have it in me". Bottom line, empirical evidence would suggest that while Hartsel offers an advantage, it is not anywhere near 20%. I have tested it with very real-world boosts. The sims also are much, much, much closer than 20%.

The other area I wanted to comment on was G55s - they, like the F32s in your arsenal, have lost their certification. As such, you can't use those for a G altitude attempt, either...

I know John - I know. Like I said, I dilly-dallied myself out of the running since there are no current motors with the capability to beat those records. However, the NCR altitude contest most definitely allows out-of-cert motors, even if NAR or TRA don't. If I can't take the world record, I can certainly take the club record. If I beat you, good luck to anyone else trying it. If I don't beat you, you can rest assured that the record will retire with you.

I'm curious what Tom Rouse will say when Adrian applies for a record considering rumors about Tom DQ'ing flights on electronics he's not personally familiar with. Wasn't it you that told me about that picture perfect N1100 shot at BALLS that Tom just blew off right out of hand because he had no experience with the altimeter in question? There are other stories I've heard eluded to.

W

Jim Wilkerson had a MONSTER boost on an N1100? at BALLS a few years ago. I was there and saw it firsthand. Jim has the current M record, and he is a very talented flyer. I later inquired as to why the N record had not been recognized BY TRA and I was told it was DQ'd because the electronics were not suitable for that altitude. My memory is fuzzy here, but IIRC it was because he had used an altimeter that was certified to 45K and had gone to 46K (ish) MSL.

I also understand that the unit he was using had been tested and calibrated in an FAA approved chamber to that altitude in anticipation of the altitude he achieved.

All of this is second-hand -- other than the boost, which I saw with my own eyes. For the record, I think his record is legit.