The main thing to me is simplicity. You don't need a PC to find your rocket, and since the Astro 220 is a real GPS, with maps, you can use it for hiking, traveling, etc. We have a new dog, so when we take her up to our cabin, the dog now gets to use it for what it was intended. Easier to share too. 😀

I'm talking about bang-for-the-buck Conway. With an ARTS w/GPS, you've got over $1000 invested in the unit plus GPS module ($189+$850 - last prices I have for the ARTS and its GPS) and you still don't have a receiver and antenna. Believe me, I got into something of an argument with Jeff Taylor on the TRA list about a year ago over the price and manufacturing costs of it and probable profit margins involved.

You would have to define what the bang your after is. Again as stated Trying to compare the Garmin to the ARTS/GPS/Telemetry package is oranges vs apples. All the Garmin can do is track. If thats all you want then sure it may very well be the best choice. But dont forget you will still have had to purchase an altimeter/s for your deployment needs and the ARTS does that and more. What I was saying Warren is that even entering the ARTS vs Garmin comparison is totally not even of the same worlds and cant be classed or compared in the same. The ARTS package does many times more then the Garmin. Now comparing it vs the Big red bee or even most of our current tracking systems would be a fair game.

BTW the ARTS flight computer and the fully loaded GPS with downlink and radio and reciver station with cables and all ready to run goes for $899.00 and not of 1,000. Less money then you had thought. Still expensive yes. But again depends on your needs.

With the Garmin Dog Collar system, you throw $450 or so down and get both receiver and transmitter and then have enough money to throw whatever altimeter/flight controller - including an ARTS - into your bird. In addition, the receiver unit can track up to 10 of them simultaneously. Yes, you'll certainly get better range with the ARTS and more functionality, but in terms of how much money you have to lay out, I don't think you can beat this combo. An ARTS+GPS board stack is nearly the same size and definitely won't fit a 38mm bird, probably won't fit a 54mm bird (don't have the ARTS dimensions here, but I know the board is large compared to an RRC2X or mini). For the purposes of flying at the North Site or Atlas Site, this Garmin rig is a tremendous deal over any of the alternatives.

Again, the GPS downlink is of higher quality and range. As well as even if you combine the ARTS with the Garmin all you still have is an altimeter with a tracking device. Now down link.. Still not even close to the same. Dont think of the ARTS GPS as JUST a tracking module. Its a real time effective downlink. You will know the altitude, Max altitude, speed, Gforces, if the rocket is under thrust or coast. When it hits apogee, and even when the main is deployed. It will even tell you the Pyro outputs. The Garmin will help you find the rocket yes. So will the ARTS. But it does so much more.

BTW the ARTS will fit in 38mm tube. Its is actually very close to the size of the RRC2X. in fact just a little smaller. Seen the full package in 38mm and 54 mm rockets before so it does fit.

I can't wait to see what Mike can do in terms of re-packaging one of these babies to see if it will fit in a 38mm bird.

Now does that mean I have the coin to buy one. No. In fact far from it. Just stating that comparing the 2 units are far from being accurate to do so..

Yes Conway, I agree there is far more to the ARTS than tracking. Range-wise it's certainly superior and all the flight computer capability. What I had with Jeff was a discussion (I think he'd consider it an argument) that his GPS was far too expensive compared to the rest of the market. I know a bit about electronics and his margins must be close to 100% on the GPS portion if not more. The chipset and active antenna set him back well under $120 in single unit quantities and that's leaning far toward the expensive side.

My 20 channel SiRF III chipset and an active antenna cost under $50 in 10 pc quantities. Admittedly it's been over a year since this discussion, but with all the rest of the components his manufacturing costs can't even be $450 for the unit and that's being generous to him. Yes it has more capability, but it's capabilities you don't need flying at the North Site for tracking.

My argument is that this Garmin GPS dog collar thing is a tremendous bargain for NCR flyers who don't go anywhere else. End of story. I'm not knocking his product (except on price)

Warren

Warren, Knowing Jeff I highly doubt he felt it an argument. But, I would agree he is a bit different and hard to read and understand his personality how he is. But yet a pretty good guy. ( I guess that happens when your a double PHD and that smart) Anyhow.. The key thing to remember is Jeff is not the manufacture of the product. Ozark Aerospace is. So im sure in the process they make something selling them to Jeff and Jeff has to make something to. You and I both having a pretty fair knowldge of electronis know what does what and what it "could" cost. I can tell you this though. Erik does do is not use cheaper parts he has a lot of time and work into his products Just like Jim does on his and im sure Jim when he releases his higher end stuff wont be so cheap either. But Erik goes all out for a better part as much as possible as he is all about quality.

Im sure most folks know there is a big difference in you or I buying parts and building it ourselfs as yes that will be lots cheaper. I highly doubt his mark up is 100% or even close. try not to forget for Ozark and Loki its a bussiness. If they arent profitable they dont exist. This I must admit is something I see that happens in our hobby specifically as a lot of "do it yourselfers" (as well as the type of work I do for a living and trust me it drives me crazy) see what a bussiness charges and see it more then they can do it for. Of course thats the case.. If most people knew what a pizza cost to make at blackjack or what a steak cost Outback they would probably freak out. They sell it for even way more then you buy it at the store (in most cases they buy it for a quarter of the price you can at the store).. Thats just the name of the game and being in bussiness. Its all around us. Not just there.. Now none of this is meant as a slap or bad just my opinion and thoughts..

Again Like many other are saying its out of my budget as well.. In fact right now even the Garmin is well out of that..

FYI, Joe Himton and I tested the Astro 220 system out to 7-1/2 miles line-of-site. That is way beyond any of our waivers. My DC20 was in an avbay sitting on my deck, which is on the east side of the mesa in Louisville, so we have a clear view out to DIA. We would have gone further but Becky was calling us home for lunch. As long as the rocket is in the air, it's line-of-site, and the Astro 220 remembers the last known track.

I don't want to dispute you Conway - I just don't think the ARTS and it's GPS package are worth the money for the kind of rockets I build and fly.

As Mike noted, out to at least 7 1/2 miles, this dog collar thing will do everything I need. If I need ARTS level flight telemetry or better, I can throw in one of Adrian's Parrot altimeters and get full 3-axis accelerometer data plus baro altitude up to 100K' for another $130 or so. I'm just waiting for him (or someone) to fly it a couple times with some known altimeters before I lay out the cash.

I know the ARTS is a good unit. Always just a tad too pricey for my needs.

W

It's really a matter of what you're looking for. I liken it (in my field) to a full functional parametric test vs. a pass/fail test. Do you want to get all the data while the rocket is in flight (i.e. motor/propellant characterization) or do you just want to know how high it went and get it back easily?

I'm still kicking myself for passing on a new ARTS GPS TX/RX pair on ebay for just over $500, but it's way overkill for my current use/abilities.

For now, a MAWD or RRC2 with either a Rino or DC20 will suit. If I hadn't already invested in the Rinos, I would jump on the DC20. Will have to see.

Ken

Unless you are like me and think the DC20 will work with a Rhino - and buy one BEFORE you bother to read up on them. Then you end up with BOTH setups. Luckily, I had the Rhinos before I got the brain fart to do the DC20..... Now. I have two DC20s coming, one Astro 220 and two Rhinos. I think my wife can find me now if I get lost, or the dog.

That being said, if anyone needs to borrow the Astro OR a Rhino 110 sometime, let me know. You can try it before you buy it.

Between the Rhino, Astro and a couple Beelines, I think I am done for a while. I know my account can't handle much more.....

The DC-20 is being replaced by the DC-30.
If you like the DC-20 you better stock up!
The Dc-30 my be more compact after one of us get done taking it apart
and checking it out!
Greg you should buy one so we can all check it out at Octoberfest. 😉

RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT, I'll get on it for ya....

PS, I'm back to 75% with the arm already. My company is closing on a new building as I type this, so I hope to have a real shop in the basement of it by this weekend. Hope the "time off from roofing" isn't too hard on the projects you are playing with.