Warren, I could be wrong (I hope not) but I believe the state permits only apply to manufacture, storage and transportation of propellant. A LEUP with contingency storage does not require state permits.

Ken.

It's a sad thing all this buearacracy and fees. Just another reason why I will never get a LEUP. I'll continue to pay for "flight services" from onsite vendors unless and until the rules tighten further.

W

This is a good way to go for most flyer's. I on the other hand make my own propellant. I see the need whether we win the lawsuit or not as being a necessity to have both state and federal permits and being fully legal. I have my own storage and it close so for me...well...I'm ok with it.

Actually I just spoke with Scott from the state. For hobby rocket motors yes you do fall under a business since they do not recognize individuals. Also for possession, storage and transport of rocket motors you do need the type 1 (possession), 2 (transport) and 3 (storage) permits at $75.00 each for a total of $225. Next you need a finger print card and you have to take a test. Scott said that it was 33 questions and would cover mostly low explosive questions. You have to get a 90% or better to pass. At that point he takes your picture and inpects your magazine. Then hopefully in a short time if the background check checks out then you get your state permits.

Mike and all, After taking time to look at things I find it interesting they have a permit for possession, Beings if you get or have the permits for storage and transportation wouldnt that mean you would already have to possess it? Kinda duh as far as I see for a possession permit. Kinda sounds like a not necessary permit if you qualify for the others. I still belive that if we are going to have to have a State permit we need to all get something going and get this more in the direction we need. It should be equal to the requirements or level of stuff the feds are doing not more. No test, Lower fees. A single Fee. Something with us in mind. Anyhow.. Hey Mike how long are the permits good for? What does it cost to renew? does one have to retake the test? Just curious if you found out any of that info.

Conway

Warren, I could be wrong (I hope not) but I believe the state permits only apply to manufacture, storage and transportation of propellant. A LEUP with contingency storage does not require state permits.

Ken.

Ken actually its not to do with just any of that. ALL explosives be it blasting High or low or anything all fall under the same state permit. Weather its business or manufacture or just personal. Its all lumped into one. Thats one of my and others issues with it. We should not have to do all the stuff they have for the other items requiring permits. Its excessive. But without it you are in violation of state law. It doesnt matter if its contingent storage or not. You will ship it, Transport it to the site use it in state and store it somewhere even if not your storage.. Thats what they see.

Permits are good for 3 years just like the fed permit. The reason for all the different permits is like I said before you are looked at as being a business, They do not recognize an individual user. Scott did make it sound like they understand hobby rocket motors and maybe the test was/is changed or geared towards low explosives. I don't believe you have to retake the test unless you fail an inspection or get a violation. More information can be found here and I suggest you read: http://oil.cdle.state.co.us/Public%20Safety/frequent_questions.asp#Explosives
Manufacture or dealer is covered under all all the permits. contact info and mail address for state applications are on the web site listed above.

By the way for those of you who have just a federal LEUP and not the state permit, Jeff C from the BATFE who did my interview did tell me that I would need a Colorado type 1,2 and 3 permits. Which means they know about the Colorado State law and the need to have the state permits in order to have the federal one. He specifically asked if I had my state permits and it was one of the questions your are asked on a list of questions that you sign and date at the end of the interview so you know that you got asked the question and that you understood the question. He also hinted that the next time he did an inspection on my magazine that all my paperwork be in order including the proper state permits.

Warren, I could be wrong (I hope not) but I believe the state permits only apply to manufacture, storage and transportation of propellant. A LEUP with contingency storage does not require state permits.

Ken.

Sorry but not true. Here is the 555.62 from the orange book:

§ 555.62 State or other law.
A license or permit issued under this
part confers no right or privilege to
conduct business or operations, including
storage, contrary to State or other
law. The holder of a license or permit
issued under this part is not, by reason
of the rights and privileges granted by
that license or permit, immune from
punishment for conducting an explosive
materials business or operations in
violation of the provisions of any State
or other law. Similarly, compliance
with the provisions of any State or
other law affords no immunity under
Federal law or regulations.

Intresting Mike. As far as I understood was that a Fed cannot enforce a State and the same goes for state vs the Fed.

Anyhow. Whatever it takes for me to be in compliance I will do. I wonder why they need to do another backround check as the ATFE does one already.. Again just interesting stuff. So if they are 3 year permits are the less to renew or the same cost?

Well I don't think the feds can enforce the state or other way around. But I believe both applications ask if you are following state and federal law. So example the fed application asks in question 12 right on the first page, "Is a state or local permit required for explosives business or operations?" You answer no but Colorado requires a permit, the BATFE can't make you get a state permit or enforce that you do. However they can pull your federal permit for not conforming to the federal law that states if your state requires a permit but you don't get one, the BATFE looks at it like you are not following what the law reads.

Sorry guys I not trying to get people to get their state permits and spend more money. All I am saying is if you think that you are covered by just a federal permit, you are wrong at least in the state of Colorado. And if something happened to where you have to go to court or something, question 12 on the application is going to come up. Like I said, Jeff from the BATFE told me they know about Colorado state law requires a permit. In other words I would be in violation of my federal permit if I did not get the required state permit. That is how they would enforce it.

As far as the state renewal fee, I am not sure, I did not ask the question. I will call back today and ask.

8) And a man came upon the land, and seeing as box, opened it... And all who lived there were dismayed, for they all knew not to open boxes that the contents they did not know.... 8)

well I just had my inspection for renewal and all went well. I also was asked about state permits. It is something that he is asking because he knows the laws and also seems to be very up on rocket motors and how we fall in with all of the maze of legal paperwork. He was very helpful and understanding. He has a job and knows what it is regardless of his opinion and it did seem like he was on the fence with the legal battle we are in. At lest he sees both sides and understands what we are going through. He does want us to fallow the rules but is not trying to cause any more road blocks and hurtles for us.

If you are engaged in any activity with explosives you need to have a state permit based on his understanding of the laws. if you are only using then then you need a type 1 but if you are transporting and using them then you need a type 2 but it sounds like that most of use fall under the type 3. It looks like I will be going down that same road as Mike, maybe we can do a group thing and they give use a break (I don't think so) but at lest it will look like we are trying to comply at all levels.

I just do not want to give my insurance company any reason not to pay any claim if something would to happen.

this may or may not have been posted already but this explains what the type I, II and III permits

1. Who is required to obtain an explosive permit?

Except as specifically allowed by these regulations, it is unlawful for any person to use, possess, control, manufacture, purchase, sell, store, transport, or dispose of any explosive material without possessing a valid permit from the Division of Oil and Public Safety.

Type I Permit: A permit required by and issued by the Division of Oil and Public Safety to individuals who possess and control or have access to explosives materials during the use, transportation, storage, distribution, manufacturing, sale, acquisition, or purchase of explosives materials.

Type II Permit: A permit required by and issued by the Division of Oil and Public Safety to corporations, companies, partnerships, firms, individuals operating a business, associations, or state or local government agencies involved in the use, purchase, sale, manufacture, transportation, or disposal of explosives.

Type III Permit: A permit required by and issued by the Division of Oil and Public Safety to corporations, companies, partnerships, firms, individuals operating a business, associations, or state or local government agencies for the storage of explosives in approved magazines.

another thing, they use the word rocket motor so it could be argued it includes hybrid's and water rocket motors.

well I just had my inspection for renewal and all went well. I also was asked about state permits. It is something that he is asking because he knows the laws and also seems to be very up on rocket motors and how we fall in with all of the maze of legal paperwork. He was very helpful and understanding. He has a job and knows what it is regardless of his opinion and it did seem like he was on the fence with the legal battle we are in. At lest he sees both sides and understands what we are going through. He does want us to fallow the rules but is not trying to cause any more road blocks and hurtles for us.

If you are engaged in any activity with explosives you need to have a state permit based on his understanding of the laws. if you are only using then then you need a type 1 but if you are transporting and using them then you need a type 2 but it sounds like that most of use fall under the type 3. It looks like I will be going down that same road as Mike, maybe we can do a group thing and they give use a break (I don't think so) but at lest it will look like we are trying to comply at all levels.

I just do not want to give my insurance company any reason not to pay any claim if something would to happen.

Well Count me in. I say we see what they can do to help us if any. So do I understand you need all 3 or just 1 of the 3 that best fits what you are doing? I will probably call the state and speak with scott to see what I can get started. Best to be proactive I guess.

the way I have been told you need all 3 but trying to understand the wording I would think a II and III but again they really only want money...

The way Scott explained it was type 1 is possession type 2 is for transport and type 3 is for storage. So if you have contingency storage you may not need type 3

So the way I see it IF you want to legal with storage in the state of CO, you need a LEUP and a Colorado Type I, II, and III licenses in order to possess, use, transport and store APCP rocket motors.

Sorry guys, not a chance in the world I'd ever do this. Hell, it was easier, and less intrusive on my privacy to get my concealed carry permit. I still think the thing to do is to wait until the court case is decided because if BATFE isn't allowed to regulate AP as an explosive, that should automatically remove it from the state's purview as well.

I will continue to build and fly rockets until actual enforcement of this stuff starts and then it'll be all over for me with HPR. I will never willingly allow any government agency the right to search my premises at will. Hell, I don't want them to even know my name.

Warren