You can be sure "they" know your name.

So the way I see it IF you want to legal with storage in the state of CO, you need a LEUP and a Colorado Type I, II, and III licenses in order to possess, use, transport and store APCP rocket motors.

Correct and dont forget the Fire Marshall.

Sorry guys, not a chance in the world I'd ever do this. Hell, it was easier, and less intrusive on my privacy to get my concealed carry permit. I still think the thing to do is to wait until the court case is decided because if BATFE isn't allowed to regulate AP as an explosive, that should automatically remove it from the state's purview as well.

The key word here is IF we win the battle for APCP. But even at that what kind of precedences will be set? Do you think a judge will allow severe ramifications like that to happen. If we have APCP removed what else could happen.. Or what if we do win. What will they regulate. Rockets all together? or complete Motors? I hate to sound like a pessimist here but, there is so much more what if's that can happen. Im not leaving anything to chance here and placing it on one bet or wild card of us winning the Lawsuit. Thats not in my control I myself have no issues giving to what I enjoy. That includes the ATFE permit and local stuff if need be and that is in my control to do. If I want to play I will have to pay. It really isnt that big of a deal to me. Ive now seen what most others I know deal with and say no problem.

I will continue to build and fly rockets until actual enforcement of this stuff starts and then it'll be all over for me with HPR. I will never willingly allow any government agency the right to search my premises at will. Hell, I don't want them to even know my name.

Warren

Enforcement has already started some time ago. We have just been fortunate for bending and pushing where we could with using gray area to our advantage as the ATFE has for theirs. I would re-think the comment about not giving willingly a right to search your premises.. Living in our country and probably cause is all they ever need to search you anywhere. Just agreeing to live here as a resident/citizen you gave up that right. Like Mike stated Im sure they know your name.... I will NOT let someone push me out of what I enjoy. Ever. Thats why I am doing the permits.

..and while this topic is wandering awful far into political terrain and Off Topic from motor storage... I would venture to say that what you're talking about is so far in violation of the Constitution it isn't even funny. I'm sure they know my name - after all I pay taxes. Anything beyond that is too much - hell, that's too much as it is.

Voluntarily giving up my right to be secure from search and seizure without a warrant strikes me as idiocy - and is required for a LEUP. As it stands now, if a cop or BATFE agent comes to my front door, I can step outside to have a word with him or her, refusing them entry to my premises, and they can't do a thing about it without a search or arrest warrant. Getting a LEUP automatically gives them the right to search your "premises" without notice, albeit during business hours. It imposes a standard of record keeping that folks without a LEUP don't have to bother with at all. In most cases it limits you to 50# in your magazine. Yet no regulations exist to say that these requirements and restrictions apply to non-LEUP holders.

You can make all the EX propellant you want without a LEUP. You can possess as much AP, AN or home made AP or AN propellant as you want without a LEUP or "certified" magazine - All legally. What you can't do is buy commercial propellant above 38mm or transport any propellant off your property "legally". Of course no one has ever been pulled over by a cop or BATFE agent and cited for transporting propellant without a LEUP or cited them for possessing APCP propellant without a LEUP. When that starts happening, it might be time to step back and only participate in team projects or just go "coyote hunting" or bird watching.

Of course, I only have G motors and smaller in my possession and I buy flight services from our friendly rocketry vendors for larger motors and have no interest in EX except to fly other folks motors so it doesn't apply to me, but it's the principle of the thing that bothers me. It's unconstitutional. Like I said, I got a concealed carry permit with little besides giving name and social security number so they could check me out for a criminal record. Why should I have to do more to possess and use something far less dangerous to public safety than my .45 or my 9mm Glock?

I'm sure the court decision, no matter how positive it might be for us in HPR, won't result in the complete removal of all restrictions. However, what happens is unknown and what requirements we will have may end up far less costly than the LEUP system you folks are spending money on. Why not wait and see? A decision is overdue and the judge definitely wants it settled. TRA put up a lot of valid evidence and BATFE tried to fudge the process leaving the judge very pissed. For all you know we could end up with a simple $5 permit and no inspections or restrictions beyond what a local fire marshall may impose. Wait and See.

Warren

..and while this topic is wandering awful far into political terrain and Off Topic from motor storage... I would venture to say that what you're talking about is so far in violation of the Constitution it isn't even funny. I'm sure they know my name - after all I pay taxes. Anything beyond that is too much - hell, that's too much as it is.

Warren the whole issue of Motors, Purchase, storage and legal issues is all very political and very much a part of the topic. It always has been. Its the one thing in our hobby that drives the best and worst of us in discussion. So I still see it as part of the topic. As far as the Constitution.... I am as strong of a supporter of freedom and the constitution as you may find. I believe in utter freedom as our founding fathers who wrote the constitution meant it to be. BUT the constitution that you speak of these days means very little as it was originally intended. It has been amended, altered bypassed and modified to remove many of the freedoms and definitions it once had to give all those that want our government to be in charge not the people as it was intended . It has been undone by all this in the name of security. But yet what most of those who have supported the changes don't understand is that now that have lost freedoms as well as are not any more safe and secure then they were before. Most of them dont care about the freedoms lost as it "personally" doesn't effect them. But someday it will. So I far from doubt that what I speak of is in much violation of the constitution anymore. I guess what Im saying is in the world we live in now people are put through things that would seem to be a violation of the constitution and it happens ALL the time. but yet those that violate it seem to have an excuse that validates it to the people that want the protections of their government so its ok and yet not a word is said.

Voluntarily giving up my right to be secure from search and seizure without a warrant strikes me as idiocy - and is required for a LEUP. As it stands now, if a cop or BATFE agent comes to my front door, I can step outside to have a word with him or her, refusing them entry to my premises, and they can't do a thing about it without a search or arrest warrant. Getting a LEUP automatically gives them the right to search your "premises" without notice, albeit during business hours. It imposes a standard of record keeping that folks without a LEUP don't have to bother with at all. In most cases it limits you to 50# in your magazine. Yet no regulations exist to say that these requirements and restrictions apply to non-LEUP holders.

I think you will find they are not as hard pressed to pin you to the wall as you may think. They dont come in and give you the shake down unless they have reason to believe there is an issue. Heck most LEUP holders will very rarely even see anyone for an inspection but maybe 2 times in 3 years. That to me doesnt sound to intrusive. Let alone if you just follow the rules and do the best you can they seem to want to work with you. BTW warrants in this time of day arent always needed. Ever since Probable cause entered into the world of legal mumbo jumbo. Seen people in past get hit for this very reason and searched without any warrant and hold up in court. Anyhow.... 50lbs is an indoor attached garage/dwelling permit size not every size capable. NON holders MUST also store any motors in possesion in a correct approved magazine (by approved it must meet the same specs as any LEUP holders Magazine would.) So lets say you have some H and I motors that were bought before the 62.5 gram enforcement. As long as you have receipt and proper storage you do not need a LEUP to have it. To say that none of the regulations pertain to non permit holders is to say that a person without a drivers license doesnt have to obey the laws of driving and road. ALL must abide or are supposed to or you are breaking law.

You can make all the EX propellant you want without a LEUP. You can possess as much AP, AN or home made AP or AN propellant as you want without a LEUP or "certified" magazine - All legally. What you can't do is buy commercial propellant above 38mm or transport any propellant off your property "legally". Of course no one has ever been pulled over by a cop or BATFE agent and cited for transporting propellant without a LEUP or cited them for possessing APCP propellant without a LEUP. When that starts happening, it might be time to step back and only participate in team projects or just go "coyote hunting" or bird watching.

Actually no, LEGALLY you cant make as much Research motor/propellant as you want. You can only store what you would be approved for in a magazine based on what variance or distances or storage would be needed. So lets say you keep it in a garage. you would most likley have 50lb storage. thats what you could store. 50lbs. Max. Now yes you can make research motors with out a permit, and burn them on the very property you made them on. BUT to transport them anywhere else on any road, street or hwy constitutes having a permit as you are engaging in commerce due to transportation. BTW you are now required to have an AFTE permit to buy AN from Firefox pyro and more of the Pyro shops will possibly follow suit. Try to go out and buy a bag of fertilizer grade AN. its getting very tough to even find. Since the creation of the safe explosives act much has changed. Now your probably right about no one being pulled over for it.. BUT I dont want to be the first as im sure it carries some pretty serious charges.

Of course, I only have G motors and smaller in my possession and I buy flight services from our friendly rocketry vendors for larger motors and have no interest in EX except to fly other folks motors so it doesn't apply to me, but it's the principle of the thing that bothers me. It's unconstitutional. Like I said, I got a concealed carry permit with little besides giving name and social security number so they could check me out for a criminal record. Why should I have to do more to possess and use something far less dangerous to public safety than my .45 or my 9mm Glock?

Ahh yes there is a disscussion I recently was in. Flight services. AS per regulation stated in the ATFE Orange book. A flight service technically means that you the flyer can own the rocket, BUT may not actually be named as owner of said motor, My not ever have physical possesion of, Assemble, Touch, USe load, or work with Motor. The permit holder must handle (or any permit holder) such said motor till it is burnt and gone. Same would be said with Research loads as well. In the past they have been easy to over-look this and have not said anything about non-permit holders using and owning motors. But I bet that changes. So far ive talked with 4 people that recently had inspection and this was discussed or people that know already.

I'm sure the court decision, no matter how positive it might be for us in HPR, won't result in the complete removal of all restrictions. However, what happens is unknown and what requirements we will have may end up far less costly than the LEUP system you folks are spending money on. Why not wait and see? A decision is overdue and the judge definitely wants it settled. TRA put up a lot of valid evidence and BATFE tried to fudge the process leaving the judge very pissed. For all you know we could end up with a simple $5 permit and no inspections or restrictions beyond what a local fire marshall may impose. Wait and See.Warren

why not wait and see. Id rather be proactive and get it done just in case. Again if the judge was going to rule totally in our favor. I think personally he would have done it. Its now Nov. The rulling was to be July. Even that we know technically we are right it burns no explodes the ATFE can chose what is on the list. Look at what the statements say before the list of materials on the list. a large CYA by the ATFE. As well as again its not as easy as whats this or that. How about what implications will be after if the judge rules for us. What others door will it open. I have a hard time beliving we will ever be at rest will being regulated. I have to say I would rather have the current regulations then have them regulate rockets as a whole. Saying how big or how high you can fly or the maximum motor size is this.. Now we are still more in control of what we fly.

Warren, note im not picking at you or on you just stating belief and what ive seen myself and others go thru. If I understand correctly I should have an inspection before the end of this year. If all goes well I could (or should) be approved for up to 1500lbs. I have no issues for helping others with Contingency if they want to get legal if thats the way it has to be. Besides I wanted to become a Motor vendor. So there it is.. Feel free to swing away. BTW I also think discussions like this need to happen as its what educates us all.

Just remember that so far without all those that have stepped up and got their permits, there would be no flight services, No rocket flights or vendors ,ect... Its they that have made it possible to keep going.. I personally thank them.

Conway

I have a LEUP. In some cases I would need it to fly in
a state other than my own. At NCR at least one of our
Vendors have a (Permit / Licence) that enables 'Non LEUP'
end users to fly at a launch.

I would hate to go to a launch and find a Vendor would not
sell to me because I was from another state.

Not much flying takes place in Wyoming.

My Father has NRA flowing in his veins. When I told Him I
was getting into Rocketry and getting a LEUP, He asked why
I was laying down and giving up My rights. He said (We (NRA)
never did and never will. We had long discussions.

I showed Him the DVD of Event Horizon MHM 2006. he was
dumbfounded. His jaw dropped. He asked. (My Dad is 80)
Does it have guidance?

Our discussions changed. He seen the power. But He also seen
the team work and the youth. He as I want to protect that.

He compaired His and My Mothers gun permits to a LEUP and
getting a licence to hunt the same as our memberships or the LEUP.

My path in life (after 16) never included guns and hunting.

You can not compair rockets to guns. Just as all the gun control
does not help the dead school kids. It will not help some fool
trying to kill with a rocket. But it may slow or stop some.

I have some acquittances from my church in Israel, they would
like to see some regulations. They get rockets all the time. permits
would not affect the ones launching them. it's hard to compair
apples.

It is wonderful to be having the discussions on the forum.

That is freedom.

I do see both sides. Both sides have great points. I will not give
up all my rights. But If I need to be looked at to Fly, That is OK

Bottom Line. I love rocketry. What ever I can do to continue
to make it a lasting and safe sport.... I will.

I do see both sides. Both sides have great points. I will not give
up all my rights. But If I need to be looked at to Fly, That is OK

Bottom Line. I love rocketry. What ever I can do to continue
to make it a lasting and safe sport.... I will.

Mike I agree with you 100%, anything we can do to make things easier for all the better. Just waiting to see what happens you may miss the bus.

the way I understand the search thing is I have to make my records and magazine available for inspection during my business hours or by appointment. they can not just walk in and inspect my home at their discretion.

That's the opposite of what I read in the orange book and the discussions on the TRA forum some months back - it seems to clearly say that they have the right to search your "premises" with no specificity that it is exclusively limited to your records and magazine.

Warren

I have a LEUP. In some cases I would need it to fly in
a state other than my own. At NCR at least one of our
Vendors have a (Permit / Licence) that enables 'Non LEUP'
end users to fly at a launch.

I would hate to go to a launch and find a Vendor would not
sell to me because I was from another state.

Mike technically as per the orange book and what ive been told there is no permit that any vendor has that 100% enables non-permit holders to possess, build, touch or fly a motor without it being a 100% supervised flight service meaning the Permit holder must do all handling of motor through all phases of the flight. The motor as being named possession must remain the possesion/ownership of the Permit holder. Now this doesnt mean flight services cant exist. As they have existed now it could be enforced as illegal activity. So far the ATF has not enforced it. As a future vendor myself Im going to make sure I follow the rules but yet provide those that want to fly the ability with such flight service. Really its all Dependant upon the rules and the vendors ability or willingness to help.

That's the opposite of what I read in the orange book and the discussions on the TRA forum some months back - it seems to clearly say that they have the right to search your "premises" with no specificity that it is exclusively limited to your records and magazine.

Warren

(with orange book in hand) I will re-read those sections and post them here verbatim. Also, you cant believe everything said on the TRA list.... Im mean.. come on. Look at some of the stuff that goes on..

Im pretty sure james is right. That is unless you are doing something illegal then anyone can be searched.

I stand corrected. Thanks

Well, my LEUP paperwork is in a folder, along with my handgun permit, all I need is to get fingerprinted. First of all, worst case, I want to thank James, Conway, and Art AGAIN for my L3 this past June. At least, I've had one successful, highest power flight in my life. I'll have the rocket, Nadine's pictures (in time) and Dave1's upcoming DVD to remember it. Best case, all this will pass. Of course, it won't pass. Those who have gotten their LEUP's have done the wise thing, IMO. I hold no grief to any BATFE agent. They're just doing their job, and a number of them fly high power. That's just the way the world is now. I can definitely understand Warren's frustration and anger. If it comes to me building a rocket and I need one of those with a LEUP to load my motor until I get a LEUP, whatever. I gotta fly. 😯

Exactly Bruce. If you love what you do and want to do it and it means enough to you, you will find a way and do what needs to be done. Thats all there is to it. I really dont find it to be as big of a deal as its made out to be. They have a Job and I want my rocketry. So I will buck up. As well as become a vendor and try to do what I can to assist others who enjoy this hobby as other vendors and LEUP holders do. I know not everyone can get a permit. Or have storage. Maybe something there we can help with as well. one thing for sure I am NOT going anywhere..

That's the opposite of what I read in the orange book and the discussions on the TRA forum some months back - it seems to clearly say that they have the right to search your "premises" with no specificity that it is exclusively limited to your records and magazine.

Warren

Orange book online as well as the one I own says

§ 55.24 Right of entry and examination.
Any ATF officer may enter during business hours
the premises, including places of storage, of any
licensee or permittee for the purpose of inspecting
or examining any records or documents required to
be kept under this part, and any explosive materials
kept or stored at the premises.
[T.D. ATF-87, 46 FR 40384, Aug. 7, 1981

Also under section

§ 843.

(f) Licensees and Permittees shall make available for inspection at all reasonable times their records kept pursuant to this chapter or the regulations issued hereunder, and shall submit to the Sceretary such reports and information with respect to such records and the contents thereof as he shall by regulations prescribe. The Secretary may enter durning bussiness hours the premises (including places of storage) of any licensee or permittee, for the purpose of inspecting or examining...

(1) Any records or documents required to be kept by such licensee or permittee, Under the provisions of this chapter or regulations issued hereunder.
(2) AND any explosive materials kept or stored by such licensee or permittee at such premises.

No where di I ever read we can come and search everything you have, your car your residence your person. It was pretty specific about when and what.. Not a real big ordel to me i guess. But this is what the orange book reads.

Conway

you do feel like you have to pull your pants down for them but they would need to have a reason to search your home. their may be some HLS thing that might give the power to search someones home but it would be the same for a non-permit holder as well if they have a suspicion. we all in this hobby may be a little more exposed then others but I do not think it is more or less with or with out a permit.