Why do it on a couple of staged and/or P motors when 1 single R motor will do more then 100K. Its allready very tough to try and do. Just simplify a lil. To many things can go wrong in a staging. besides I love single BIG powerul motors. Much Much more impresive. Its like the difference between 10 Nascar cars VS 1 NHRA top fuel Car. Thats Power baby!!! Same with 1 big mondo Ginormas humungo motor. Yes it would be minimum Diameter. The casing for the motor would be the body. It would be an insane amount of propellant. But it would be bad wicked. But its been done before. Infact by a fellow freind of mine and Ex-NCR member.

Oh - I agree. A 2 stager could possibly do it with a smaller rocket and less propellant though, and therefore be less expensive. That's why I suggested it as an option.

But be truthful. If your really gonna go for 100K think you will skimp and go cheap with the possibillity of not making it? nahh. I wouldnt. Let go for broke!!!

100K? At this juncture, with our collective budgets (squared), I don't think we could do it. Finding a waiver would also be a bit of a challenge. My suggestion is to try to get to 50K first, which is no small thing. I nearly piddled myself the first time I had a "2" as the first beep out of an altimeter, i.e. when I broke 20K.

My personal goal is [and always has been] to get to 40K with clean recovery. I'm going to make such an attempt in September, 2007. Black Rock --- BE THERE!!!!!!!!!

And if anyone from NCR could ever do it JW it would be you!!! I have the highest respect for doing High altitudes and doing good clean recovery. To me means nothing if I dont get it back. Anything over 12 to 15K is quite an achivement in my eyes as most flyers will never see that high. Anything 20 and above is pretty kick butt.... and more then 30 or 40 is phenomanal and 100K is OH MY GOD!!!. I think many of us take for granted the talent and skills it really takes to do such feats and take it lightly. I have only flown to around 15K for my personal best just shy of 3 miles with a K motor flight and it was awesome and yet difficult for the project at hand i was doing. It was a great experince. And yes I do plan to go higher... MHM N4000BB to lil over 22k..

let me clarify: when I said 35 to 40 taking no special talent--a min diam N will do it easily. Course the rocket has to be built with composite materials, and GPS or good beacon on board. Care has to be exercised with the EC's. But really thats it. What John Wilke does is much different. He flies comparitively small rockets with small motors--thats IMO what makes it so insanely tricky. He has to engineer everything into very tight quarters, etc, and keep length to a minimum. The N's are 4 inch by 10 feet, ample room for everything.

At LDRS, 2 or 3 similar flights made, one an L3.

I'm with Chris on this one, we,ve been flying sounding rockets way high since the 50's. This is old technology and most of the info needed is in the public domain. most are staged. Its not the easiest, just more efficient, esp if you can reduce diameter on the way.

JW, thought Balls has waivers to 100k. granted not past, but a nice place to fly high.

As I know about the flights at LDRS including the L3 cert (BTW to mention that guy that certed has tried several times before with a Minimum diameter N only to shred it a few of those times. Yes it was composite everytime so exactly my point of the difficulty) Besides look at the amount of people at LDRS that have the motor capabillity to fly to that altitude and or set out to attempt and only a hand few..(3 at this particular event) that actually do get there. If it were really easy many many more would do it. Sorry for my difference of opinion but Its not as easy as it seems and that is what makes doing those altitudes such a thrill. It May look it may think it to be black and white down right easy. but its not. Ive heard from others with much more experince then most here posting about it. People like JW and some others nationally to say a few that have made attempts or even to those heights. Ive even been able to sit down and talk face to face to persons that have flown to 100K+. They all say the same thing. dont get caught up in thinking its really easy.. Its deceptive and quite tough.

FWIW, I tried three times to break 20K before I finally succeeded. They were all really well thought out shots, or at least I thought they were. The rockets all cost several hundred $, and the motors were $250 and up. No small thing. Personally, I'm 1 for 3 north of 20K. The first shot had electronics issues, the second was apogee deploy that went slightly parabolic and shredded the chute, and the 3rd was my successful L shot at MHM.

I've been over 15K at total of ten times, with clean recovery seven of those ten times.

It is really tough to get by unscathed at that sort of altitude. I've often said that it is twice as hard to go to 18K as it is to go to 16K, which is twice as tough as 14K, etc. Anytime anyone breaks 15K, they get a free beer or soda on me. It is very, very tough. 20K is WAY harder than 15K, etc. My 40K attempt at BALLS in September of '07 will take perhaps 200 hours of exectution. It is a major, major amount of work, overlayed with even more dumb luck if it succeeds 😀

If anyone of you wants my help on altitude at any time, consider me an open book. I've lent my high performance rockets to other flyers many times. The next best thing to me getting "up there" is helping someone else do it. There are two dozen flyers in NCR who could take any one of my records at any time. Much talent here!

hmm. a free beer huh. I think I will just have to take you up on that JW... Does it matter engine or size of vehicle?

No restrictions, Conway!

I'm new here...and have caught the end of this thread. One thing about altitude junkies is that they are not shy about showing you what they've come up with. It's hard to squeeze out a few extra hundred feet out of rockets. It takes the right launch site, weather, building techniques, motor and rocket to break an existing record. For awhile the TRA records were pretty stagnant. But with the recent introduction of some new motor manufactures Ellis, AMW and others has introduced new possibilities. I began to play around with a boosted dart until I found out they are not allowed for TRA records. Boosted darts would introduce more new life into the single motor class. As for 100K. Dave Triano and Frank did a Q (8") a couple of years ago at Balls and got a reported 87K. Not sure if they ever recovered the rocket. Can you get a 100K with commercial motors? I think so..it will need to be a 2 or 3 stage rocket. Here is a link to a group project. http://www.to100k.org/ . In the same lines as John was saying..we've done two test flights..no BP in the charges and dead batteries cost the group a few thousand dollars. It's the small things that get you. We have another test flight and then the "big" (O-5100 - M1000) flight Planned for Aug 4. Best advise to those looking to be 'altitude junkies' is to seek out those that are, ask lots of questions learn the techniques and then go for it. Don't get bummed out if the flight does not go as planned..pick-up the pieces and try again and again!
Tony

Glad to have you here tony. Welcome aboard. Yes I know of the Q project you speak. The 100K+ flight I speak of was the OuR project. It was a full R motor. It was done by Paul Robinson, Ken Mizoi, Frank Kosdon and some others. Now it did not get recovered..BUT they know where it is at as well as the have actual data transmission and video from onboard that was all transmitted to the ground. Really awesome deal. in fact I belive there is video of this on one of the DVD's you can buy from BALLS. Not sure wich one but if I find it I will buy a copy. You are absolutly correct about the cynical nature of doing altitude. That is why I so well belive that doing it is harder then most give credit for. Eventually some day My goal Like JW is to atleast push the 50K area. After that who knows.

It's hard to squeeze out a few extra hundred feet out of rockets. It takes the right launch site, weather, building techniques, motor and rocket to break an existing record.

Precisely. Right now I have two boosts that have exceeded TRA records, but not by the 2% requirement. You can wring and tweak and coax a few feet here and there; at some point, it gets pretty tight!

As I know about the flights at LDRS including the L3 cert (BTW to mention that guy that certed has tried several times before with a Minimum diameter N only to shred it a few of those times. Yes it was composite everytime so exactly my point of the difficulty) Besides look at the amount of people at LDRS that have the motor capabillity to fly to that altitude and or set out to attempt and only a hand few..(3 at this particular event) that actually do get there. If it were really easy many many more would do it. Sorry for my difference of opinion but Its not as easy as it seems and that is what makes doing those altitudes such a thrill. It May look it may think it to be black and white down right easy. but its not. Ive heard from others with much more experince then most here posting about it. People like JW and some others nationally to say a few that have made attempts or even to those heights. Ive even been able to sit down and talk face to face to persons that have flown to 100K+. They all say the same thing. dont get caught up in thinking its really easy.. Its deceptive and quite tough.

Obviously just using composites is not enuf--I don't know the details of Jim's earlier attempts but my guess is that they began with FWFG tubing, a material many naively believe to be Mach 2+ capable. In fact I have heard more times than once FG is as strong as CF from very seasoned rocket guys. But why try for a ne plus ultra shot w/o getting some experience first. It was Icarus like approach and he was punished for his hubris, but in the end had the last word.

Perhaps, and I know this ain't your cup of tea, that part of the problem in trying to break 30K with a single motor, is that you just have to roast it.

I've simmed this problem from multiple approaches, and to keep the stresses, including heat, down, you need to fly below M2, preferably about M1.8 or so. Then your epoxy doen't melt, either by heat transfer from the casing or frictional heating. Thats the premise of my current project, in fact I'm sacrificing altitude by not drag separating, coasting until below transonic, etc just to keep the profile mellow. I believe this is a well thought out plan, and will bet anyone a steak dinner I make it to 25k at Balls, even steven, and if I break 30K, I get to pick the vendor, otherwise Outback. 😛
John S