Doug,

You make two really great points here. One, we REALLY need to be good citizens with the land use agencies. Particularly as our launches get bigger. Joe does a fantastic job with this on behalf of the club but we all need to make sure our individual behavior, as well as those around us, it done in a way that will not risk our use of the site.

Two, you need a bigger chute.

Do be aware that we fly on federal land - the National Forest Service administers it. The rules are quite different. Firearms are explicitly allowed to be used anywhere on the grasslands subject to the state restriction of not within 100 yards of a public road or 500 yards of a residential building. Our informal arrangement with the USFS for using the north site does preclude fireworks, motorized vehicles off road or even on the windmill access road due to environmental issues. All rocket recovery must be done on foot - unless you're lucky enough that your bird lands within walking distance of an approved road.

Warren

Actually, there may be some new USFS regs which may preclude use of firearms at the N. site. I'll check into it, I have a great source there. I was quite surprised when I heard this, but the person who was telling me this was an in-the-know federal employee.

Doug, thanks for your post - you raise relevant issues, even if there is a state / federal interpretation to be had. The previous TRM site (~7-9 miles ESE of the current N site) was lost due to a rancher raising issues with the rocketry group. In that case, the rancher was out of his gourd with his allegations. The rocket guys lost the site, though.

JW

I'd like to hear if there has been some kind of rule change. I've frequently gone to the north site and other nearby places in the grasslands to sight-in my rifles and do a little plinking over the last 4 or 5 years.

That's very strange descent data - I have data from my Deuce (which weighs ~25-27lbs descent mass) that shows a descent rate of 18 fps from the North site (RRQS50).

What will I do? I don't know. There's TC Hartsel, but they have a low waiver. What will I do? Cry a lot and watch Dave Hansen's DVD's over and over again.

The following is just my humble opinion. The only times I've seen pickups go just out of regulation range are the guy who brings the launch equipment out (that's standard operating procedure--how many guys would it take to manually take the trailer to its place?), once for Event Horizon (the NFS guy was up on a hill watching the launch; don't know if he said anything to Joe about that), and yours, Doug, (absolutely NO condemnation!) because you've got one of the best launch pads I think ever constructed. It shouldn't have to be manually carried out either. I think the club took some grief, fielded by Joe Hinton, after we got stuck in the mud at Mile High Mayhem this year. No one EVER forget what Joe does for this club. As far as firearms, they are legal to carry INSIDE a vehicle (same as if it were in your house)--though if you take it out of your vehicle you're breaking state law without a concealed weapons permit, unless firearms are permitted on that section of Federal land (JW's checking that). What about all the hunters that surround us during hunting season? Those are the shots you and the rest of us hear. Kinda makes it hard to hear ejection charges. 🙄 I think there actually is an NCR bylaw banning firearms at the site(s). To my knowledge, no NCR member has ever taken a gun out during a launch. As far as fireworks, up until recently there wasn't a state law against fireworks, only local municipalities enact rules regulating or banning fireworks. Now, I really don't know. There may be a state law regarding fireworks. I don't bring or make any for the launches.

I remember Oktoberfest '06 when the cadets fired their clustered rocket, and one of the adult members of that group pleaded with me (I was helping the launch team at the time) if they could take a truck out to go get it--it was being carried away by the wind. I said no, you can only take them on access roads. That bothered me, but it was the right thing to do. Boy, Doug, what a downer you are! Two things: first, you're right about protecting and policing ourselves in regard to our sites; second, I am so sorry that you and your group lost your launch site, for now anyway. I really hope you get it back. But your point is well taken, in the fact that things will never be the same. We are all in the process, whether Federal or state, of being permitted to death. I recently saw a HPR button that read, something like: "You Will Not Take the Sky From Me." Kinda poignant.

With all the Green groups and Evranuts out there we should be glad we can even walk on the land anymore. Dont get me wrong, I believe we need conservation, but everybody needs a place to do thier thing.
We were hunting one time for Big Horn Sheep, and watched some guys with Hill Climbing Bikes go right up the side of the mountain IN A WILDERNESS AREA tearing up the vegitation and hill side! Wheres the law when you need them! I like motor cycles but that wasnt the place for them to be doing their thing!! Unbelievable!!!!
If the club has been granted privlages to use a piece of ground abiding by certain rules, then they should be followed by all with out question. It never ceases to amaze me, there are always those who think they are special (the atv guy, the guy who wanted to take the truck cross country for the rocket).
One must remember we are the visiters out there. The ranchers/land owners and the Sheriff or other authorities probly all eat at the same resterant on friday night, or went to high school together. Have a problem with one, you have a problem.
Tread lightly and have respect! 8)

Scotte

Well said, Scotte. It's Federal land, and all can use it within certain restrictions. Technically, the hunters have as much right as we do to use the land, even at the same time, as long as we are aware and respectful of each other. Currently, this is where Colorado stands on fireworks (BTW, there is no Federal law against them; John Adams, one of our Founding Fathers, said that the 4th of July SHOULD be celebrated with fireworks. I like the guy, but that's just me, and he didn't live with fire restrictions, which must ALWAYS be respected). Rocketry, both high power and model rocket, has avoided launches on the 4th, so that people don't get confuse rocketry with pyro, and that is essential:

Colorado Fireworks Laws

CONSUMER FIREWORKS
Specifically Permitted Cylindrical and cone fountain, ground spinner, torch and colored fire, dipped stick and sparkler, snake and glow worm, trick noisemaker and certain other novelties.

Specifically Prohibited Any fireworks not specifically permitted.
Age of Purchase 16 years of age

DISPLAY FIREWORKS
Display Permit Apply to local authorities at least 30 days before display date, or to Division of Fire Safety if no local authority. Valid for only one date or event, and location. Fee: 10% of cost of display ($250 max.)

Insurance No requirements in state law. May be required by local authorities.

Operator Display must be handled by an operator certified by the state. With certain exceptions, written exam required. Apply to Division of Fire Safety, $25 fee.

LICENSING
Manufacturing, wholesale and retail licenses required annually; apply to Division of Fire Safety at least 30 days in advance of activity. Retail licenses good for calendar year in which issued.

Exporter $ 750
Wholesaler $ 750
Display $ 750
Retailer (per location) $ 25

ENFORCING AUTHORITY
Colorado Department of Public Safety
Division of Fire Safety
700 Kipling Street, Suite 1200
Denver, CO 80215
303-239-4463
www.state.co.us/gov_dir/cdps/dfs.htm

LAW NUMBER
Art. 28 or Title 12. Revised 1991

Sorry to hear that Doug. But I cant help but think and say that the person arguing with the rancher really should have taken a better path to solve the issue. Not only losing the launch site to its full past use but also now making a enemy of rocketry out of the rancher and Im sure he will tell 2 friends that tell 2 more and so on. Word of mouth can travel fast, In fact we have that problem now with the locals around the north launch site we have unfortunately. When James and Art spent some time out looking for James Rocket even a few days later they went to some ranchers houses and happened to visit with a man and woman at one of the properties. Turns out this guy has had a run in with rocketry before in the past and had very little to think nice of us or what we do. He said that supposedly (and I believe this whole heartedly) that some guy/people came out looking for a rocket didnt ask permission to be on his land and then when confronted just blew the rancher off as if the rocket was SOOOO much more important then what the rancher was saying. Later a article in a newspaper portrayed the older rancher as some kind of jerk while out searching for this rocket (guess what the comments made it back to the rancher). So talk about bad. James and Art had to explain that the guys they saw before were not us and we would never never treat them like that. I heard this and was enraged. I tell you what. Good thing I wasnt there.. They would have had more issues then trying to find some big rocket they lost.

So we need to do something as a club to mend the relations with the locals in that area. Or thats what I believe. Its better then just letting them not like us and have the wrong idea about NCR as we are not B.E.E.

I think that for the most part we as a club do a great job taking care of our site. We have a great relationship with the Forest service, Due to Joe, yes, and I say thanks to Joe much!!! But also paved by others before and a club as a whole that cares and does what is right. So I say everyone deserves some credit there. Doug again im sorry to hear that issues went crazy and the loss of the site.

We just need to be attentive, Care, and give the respect to the people and property and environment thats needed.

Doug, as afr as the chute I am baffled. Ive also done test on my decent rate with my RRQ70 with a 60lb rocket at our altitude and ended up with decent rates less then 17fps.

Conway

Maybe its to corny I dont know. But perhaps a small gift and a card to each adjacent Land Owner, thanking them for putting up with the club once a month. Maybe they would start thinking "Oh yea those were the people who sent those chocolates at Christmas". 😉
Just an idea.

Scott e

For clarification purposes - NCR still does not have a signed Land Use Permit from the USFS although the paperwork has been in play for over five years. I can only speculate as to why it has taken so long but my sense of the process is that we are still better off without. We are just one of many users of the Grassland and have made great strides to remain on the positive side with the USFS. We have kept them in the know as to when and where we are wanting to go play and they have been more than accomodating to our many requests. We have been asked to please keep our vehicles on the authorized roads and to please park within 100 feet of the road at the launch site, and have been given verbal permission to occasionally exceed that limitation to deploy and recover launch equipment and in the event of an emergency a vehicle(s) could be used for fire mitigation and suppression. We are not supposed to go driving/four wheeling/biking around and about looking for our toys - we are supposed to stick to the authorized roads and established roads to employ foot recovery only. We have been granted premission to establish and maintian a single fire pit for our larger camping adventures.
TREAD Lightly. Travel and recreate with minimum impact. Respect the environment and the rights of others. Educate yourself, plan and prepare before you go. Allow for future use of the outdoors by leaving it better than you found it. Discover the rewards of responsible recreation.

That explains why Doug and others can drive out to set up their equipment. My sincere apologies if I made it look as if Doug were getting away with something or breaking the rules. He wasn't.

Regarding discharge of firearms on USFS / BLM property... I indicated I'd follow up on this. Following is a summary of the comments from someone in the know:

# # #

The Forest Service at one time banned “target practice” on all USFS lands, but that has been relaxed somewhat – probably because it is virtually unenforceable. Hunting is generally allowed. Certain high use areas disallow it, but now its OK in most areas where organized recreation is not present (eg. Campgrounds, picnic areas, boat docks, etc.). The rule to be mindful of is shooting too near and/or across any USFS road – the regs very clearly state you cannot discharge firearms on or near FS numbered roads.

# # #

I think I captured the essence of this individual's comments. Now you know...