Funny, there are 2 of you guys really up for this project, you and Rich .. one I Parker (WAY South) one in ... uh.. basically Wyoming .. still need that Longmont location!! 🙂
Is that a hint?
I dont know how much time I would have to help (depends on the month), or money to donate, (depends on the weather 🙂 ) over and above the stuff I already have.
We could make room in my hanger. Well lit and with heat. A few table top tools and a few table tops.
Tried to send you a measage yesterday, but I guess it didnt fly.
Steve, since you like them big, after the Proton M is completed and put away, how about a large model of the X-15, the one with two rocket motors. But this one is radio controlled, (something easy) with a glide and descent rate like a Space Shuttle, HL-10, or a brick, which ever is more accurate. The pilot blows the lower dorsal and deploys skids and the nose wheel just before landing. Maybe build it with a 12" tube also. Should do OK going straight up with two wings, two vertical stabilizers, and two stabilators on the lower fuselage. Oh and I forgot the drag breaks on the bottom of the upper vertical stabilizer to help slow it down.
Funny, there are 2 of you guys really up for this project, you and Rich .. one I Parker (WAY South) one in ... uh.. basically Wyoming .. still need that Longmont location!! 🙂
Is that a hint?
I don't know how much time I would have to help (depends on the month), or money to donate, (depends on the weather 🙂 ) over and above the stuff I already have.
We could make room in my hanger. Well lit and with heat. A few table top tools and a few table tops.
Tried to send you a message yesterday, but I guess it didn't fly.
Thanks Scott .. I would certainly be interested. I expect the build will take at least 4 months .. lots of weekends plus some. I'll PM you my phone # and we'll talk..
Steve, since you like them big, after the Proton M is completed and put away, how about a large model of the X-15, the one with two rocket motors. But this one is radio controlled, (something easy) with a glide and descent rate like a Space Shuttle, HL-10, or a brick, which ever is more accurate. The pilot blows the lower dorsal and deploys skids and the nose wheel just before landing. Maybe build it with a 12" tube also. Should do OK going straight up with two wings, two vertical stabilizers, and two stabilators on the lower fuselage. Oh and I forgot the drag breaks on the bottom of the upper vertical stabilizer to help slow it down.
Actually my next project is the Excalibur in the same scale as the Dragonship. A drag race would be too cool!!! Maybe after that .. sounds challenging ..
PROTON SCALE DRAWING FROM ROCKETS OF THE WORLD
Thanks Greg, I have that same diagram. I'm using it for most dimensions, but don't like the payload area .. doesn't look quite like the images I've seen.
What an awesome book though!! Got my Delta II specs from there as well.
Yep, I see the request was from some time ago. It sounds like the Delta II was a great group project!
To get the look right on the Proton, make sure and add a big 'ol American Flag as if this was launching an EchoStar satellite.
Maybe they can sponsor the launch. What is the budget for this project?
For the six booster tubes, what are you planning to use for the tubes? I see that 4" PVC, Shedule 40 (lighter in weight than Sch 80) is 4.5" in diameter, OD. That should work if it is acceptable. If you are using schedule 40, then we know the ID and could start building 75 mm motor mounts. If you are using LOC 75mm motor tubes, 1/4" bulkheads can be cut to fit the inside of the PVC, cut sleeves out of PVC tubing and slide those on the inside at the bulkhead locations to lock the bulkheads in so they do not move, ever. The next thought would be, from looking at the drawings, the centerline of the motors are located about on the circumference of the large tube. Will you want the "k"s to do the same thing or are you going to build it more out of scale and mount them in the center of the booster tubes. This is easier, the other method, even though more accurate, complicates construction. I also observed brackets that would be holding the booster tubes to the main center tube. We can fabricate something like that for looks and mechanical stability, while at the same time, bolting the boosters onto the main tube, since they are not removable. What say you?
In doing further exploration, there is a website: http://www.cardmodels-r.narod.ru/html/images/Proton/proton-m.pdf, that shows instructions and patterns for building a model of a Proton M (and another site that does the Proton K). On these sites, they have the patterns for all the shrouds, and nose cones, etc. We can take these and scale them up to the correct size for this build, and cut out a lot of trial and error in the design work. It even has a color scheme, and other details that we might not normally have. Check it out and see if you think it might be useful. This link: ( http://www.cardmodels-r.narod.ru/html/Proton-LP2-e.htm) has the launcher to be made from card stock in 1:96 scale, and there is another link at this site to help you build the transport rail car. This helps it to be a lot more exciting for me by knowing these other details.
For the six booster tubes, what are you planning to use for the tubes? I see that 4" PVC, Shedule 40 (lighter in weight than Sch 80) is 4.5" in diameter, OD. That should work if it is acceptable. If you are using schedule 40, then we know the ID and could start building 75 mm motor mounts. If you are using LOC 75mm motor tubes, 1/4" bulkheads can be cut to fit the inside of the PVC, cut sleeves out of PVC tubing and slide those on the inside at the bulkhead locations to lock the bulkheads in so they do not move, ever. The next thought would be, from looking at the drawings, the centerline of the motors are located about on the circumference of the large tube. Will you want the "k"s to do the same thing or are you going to build it more out of scale and mount them in the center of the booster tubes. This is easier, the other method, even though more accurate, complicates construction. I also observed brackets that would be holding the booster tubes to the main center tube. We can fabricate something like that for looks and mechanical stability, while at the same time, bolting the boosters onto the main tube, since they are not removable. What say you?
I already have the booster tubes, cardboard (rocketry tubes), and I was planning on mounting the motors centered .. though am open to moving them. However, if I use 3" motors, as Edward suggests, in a 4.5" tube .. center is the only real option. However .. however, finding 6 or 10 - 3" K motor cases to borrow or rent will likely be impossible. Also .. I may have the booster motor mount parts already .. I'm still digging everything out of storage.
The boosters will be removable for transport/assembly .. just won't drop off during the flight. Yes, I'd like to match the booster mount detail as closely as possible .. I like the look in the pics. Remember, we'll have Rail Buttons mounted between the boosters on one side. I expect we'll use UniStrut for the rail and stiffen it considerably.
In doing further exploration, there is a website: http://www.cardmodels-r.narod.ru/html/images/Proton/proton-m.pdf, that shows instructions and patterns for building a model of a Proton M (and another site that does the Proton K). On these sites, they have the patterns for all the shrouds, and nose cones, etc. We can take these and scale them up to the correct size for this build, and cut out a lot of trial and error in the design work. It even has a color scheme, and other details that we might not normally have. Check it out and see if you think it might be useful. This link: ( http://www.cardmodels-r.narod.ru/html/Proton-LP2-e.htm) has the launcher to be made from card stock in 1:96 scale, and there is another link at this site to help you build the transport rail car. This helps it to be a lot more exciting for me by knowing these other details.
Whoa .. so cool. What a great site. That'll help for sure .. good digging!!!
PROTON SCALE DRAWING FROM ROCKETS OF THE WORLD
Thanks Greg, I have that same diagram. I'm using it for most dimensions, but don't like the payload area .. doesn't look quite like the images I've seen.
What an awesome book though!! Got my Delta II specs from there as well.
Yep, I see the request was from some time ago. It sounds like the Delta II was a great group project!
To get the look right on the Proton, make sure and add a big 'ol American Flag as if this was launching an EchoStar satellite.
Maybe they can sponsor the launch. What is the budget for this project?
Thanks .. the build budget should be modest .. few hundred or so(beyond what I have already invested. I have a lot of parts, fiberglass, epoxy, etc already. However the motor budget is nuts!! With an "O" and possible 10 - "K"s .. it'll reach $1000 easily. Once I get this going and can show some real progress .. I'll put a donation link like I did with the Delta. Club members and friends were really generous and helped make that flight happen.
For the nose cones for the six boosters on the first stage, if we had a set of full size drawings, we could then make templates to work with and I could carve the cones out of foam and then we could glass them. That would keep them pretty light, yet very easy to make. The nose cone for the whole rocket could be done the same way. I have made nose cones, prop spinners, reducers, couplers, etc. and learned how to do it when I was using 1/4" plexiglass glued together to make the same sort of shapes for the models of oil refineries that I used to make years ago.
I'm in the process of putting together a CNC Hotwire cutting system similar to this one:
http://www.foamlinx.com/foamlinx_medium_hot_wire_cnc_foam_cutters.html
if that would be of any help. I'm hoping to get it up and running this Spring.
It looks like the idea of a LARGE nose cone in foam has been done as in the case of this X-15 project:
If you look at the three or more links for the card stock launcher, I think you will see something interesting. The rocket is, as you know transported to launch pad laying down horizontally on a huge, long rail car. I know it has to be strapped on somehow, but I did not see it yet. When the rail car gets backed up to the correct location so the tail can go down into the hole in the ground, then an erection gantry come out of the ground, latches onto the rail car as raises this whole assembly vertical, and in to launch position. Then another gantry come over to it, for final preparation. I do not know who this Russian modeler is, but he has some great information on his site, and he must have twenty different Russian rockets there (taking license for exageration here) Explore the sites, I think you will really be surprised. I may have to print the Proton M out on card stock and build it so I have a better idea of what I am looking at. Who knows, build it sturdy enough, and replace card stock with tubes, it might be flyable? As for the first stage, I think you could keep it more accurate, for scale effect, if all seven of the first stage motors were mounted in the sona tube. You would have to cut through the tube walls at the base, and install a complicated set of bulkheads that would hold all seven motor mounts, then at launch assembly, you slide the booster tubes over the tops of the motor mounts and bolt those on. Not quick and easy, but certainly doable with the right tools. I think I might start with a large pylwood disc, and then cut out the outer tube rings and shape the profile, then drill the holes for the motor tubes. It's your bird, I am just thinking on ways that it could be done.
Thanks for the link on the X-15, Greg. That was way cool, but very sad. So how is the RockSim coming? Is this going to be enough to get it to 4 or 5000 feet? As for the foam nose cone, I think that would be easy, inexpensive, and quick. If we mounted a clothes rod throught he center, we could find a way to chuck that up and turn it like a lathe at a low rpm and turn it cutting with a hot wire, (like making foanm wing cors witha template) and then files and sandpaperfor final dimensions. Glass it while it is there and then sand with out taking it off of the home made lathe will work, (this does not have to be a powered shaft, but could be hand turned as long as it can freely move between the two centers) and then cut the rod off and sand to finsihed shape at the apex of the nose cone.
Steve, In regards to shock cord anchors, I found on line some forged eye-nuts in all different sizes for a good price, so all-thread anchors could be used and then screw on an eye-nut for your shock cord anchors.
On the Proton, where will the first stage come apart for chute deployments,and how does the first stage separate from the second stage for the airstart?
Thanks guys, you're all giving me goosebumps with the memories of the Delta II project.
My thoughts... based on several large group projects I've been involved in (Delta II, uprOar, unLeashed, etc.)
- - Make design decisions and get accurate drawings together before you cut a single piece of material.
- Do NOT do composite tubing on paper or concrete forms. For anything N or above, buy commercial composite tubing. The savings in labor will more than offset the additional cash cost. This is one of THE primary reasons to do it as a group project.
- Everyone kicks in 1/X th of the cost. Everyone pays an equal share of the costs - this can include donation of stuff mind you, motors or avionics or construction materials. What matters is that all the participants feel that they have contributed fairly from a financial point of view. Those who commit greater labor to the project do so for the joy of doing so.
- Minimize group labor. Have specialists - someone whose role in the project is full responsibility for aspect 'X'. An avionics guy, a mechanical designer, a motor guy or guys, a composite guy, a recovery system guy.
- Have frequent face-to-face meetings between various specialists and anyone whose work is interacting.
- You really need a minimum of 5 people - airframe/fins, avionics, motor, recovery and the central project manager and they all need to communicate a LOT during the design phase.
- Once design is done and signed off by consensus of the full team, fabrication is best handled by the smallest group possible.
- Above all have a central project leader/manager who coordinates everything. He doesn't have to be a technical expert, he just has to have the overall goals in mind and to have enough technical expertise to be able to evaluate and manage what they are doing.
- Don't let the project leader dictate finances. Make that something that ONLY comes from consensus. Just because one of you bastards is a cheapskate doesn't mean the project should fail. Slow down and make it come out right.
- Be flexible. Don't rush the project if you want it to come out right.
- Most of all, don't under-motor and don't make final decisions about motor impulse until you have a clear idea of the final dry weight.
- Practice full assembly and flight readiness before you show up to Mile High Mayhem or Oktoberfest. While I'm not the greatest exemplar in this department, groundtest the hell out of complex projects.
I can say that 2 of the finest experiences in my rocketry career were the large group projects of the Delta II and uprOar projects. These both involved 6-8 project participants. Both had perfect first flights - although the Delta II was underpowered for its weight and the uprOar didn't fly as origially designed, both had perfect virgin flights. I learned more - both in technical matters and in personal relationships in these projects with these people than anything else I've ever done in this hobby. The Delta project was the only thing that could have prepared me for the uprOar and those projects were the only things that could have prepared me for unLeashed.... and those experiences were the only thing that could have prepared me for things like my L3 and the unLeashed. (Let me tell you that building a successful O powered project before you do your L3 is quite an ego-boost).
In any event, I'd love to help with this project and still have shitloads of glass, carbon, kevlar and all the v-bagging materials necessary. Doing a group project of all this magnitude is possibly the finest joy I've ever found in rocketry.
Whoa, just reading up on this project. Sounds amazing.
Well, I have no $$ and even though I have my Level 2, I am definitely still a noob to HP rocketry, but I live in Longmont and can sand, glue, whatever to help this along.... Message me if you can use me in any way, sounds like an amazing learning experience.
Kevin
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