The big issue is the motor database needs a thorough clean-up and major additions. I'll do what I can to get it done. Joe is the primary responsible party for Launch Log entries and he should be adding new motors as he goes, but I assume when he's got a few hundred flight cards to go through he's not going to do the research necessary to add the propellant weight to the load.

AP Bonfire results are automatically tabulated from the launch logs and totalled from the motor database. Jeremiah and I have discussed having it automatically query thrustcurve.org, but nothing has been done about it as of yet.

If the motor database isn't cleaned up before the annual meeting, I may decline to offer the prize this year - after all, it's only a certificate.

Warren

Thrustcurve.org is not up to date and there are so many new motors out now that I wouldn't expect anyone entering the launch logs to go after the numbers for every new motor. The only logical way to do the AP bonfire is to have the fliers put down on their flight card what the motor's total impulse in newtons is. If the person does not put down the total impulse in newtons, then the flight doesn't count.

Art

AP Bonfire results are automatically tabulated from the launch logs and totalled from the motor database.

The only logical way to do the AP bonfire is to have the fliers put down on their flight card what the motor's total impulse in newtons is.

I agree and that is what I was suggesting. IF someone wants to have their name on the list the only practical method is for them to submit their propellant masses. They can be checked against the flight cards but I noticed that even on my flights posted on the flight log that you don't list all the motors from the flight. The strap on boosters for Freeze Frame are listed in the comments but the motors are not listed under the motors category.

By the way Art, I roughly calculated your AP Bonfire contribution and you did beat me out. 😥
But between the two of us we burned over 45 kg of AP this year 😯

Doug

AP Bonfire is determined not by total impulse but by manufacturer's propellent weight.

W

Warren,

I'd be glad to update the database. I'm sure it already takes Joe hours to get the flights entered and maintain a motor library would be something should be able to delegate. The least I can do is help on the lookup tables.

Feel free to send me an email or PM.

Ed

Clusters and staged flights are credited to the largest motor used, not the total number of motors used or the total weight of propellant. Trying to enter more than one motor per flight creates other data entry headaches. Our databases and posted launch logs are almost unique to the hobby and all of the other clubs out there. Keeping track of all the details is usually left up to the individual fliers. We are trying to provide an insiders view of what everyone is doing with NCR and there are a few glitches here and there but the intent is good. Eventually it will all be corrected and maybe brought up to date. In the meantime, knowing what you've done, or what anyone else has flown helps establish a baseline for what we hope to fly or will fly next year. It's all good and a fancy certificate or a dinky trophy is always a bonus.

Clusters and staged flights are credited to the largest motor used, not the total number of motors used or the total weight of propellant. Trying to enter more than one motor per flight creates other data entry headaches. Our databases and posted launch logs are almost unique to the hobby and all of the other clubs out there. Keeping track of all the details is usually left up to the individual fliers. We are trying to provide an insiders view of what everyone is doing with NCR and there are a few glitches here and there but the intent is good. Eventually it will all be corrected and maybe brought up to date. In the meantime, knowing what you've done, or what anyone else has flown helps establish a baseline for what we hope to fly or will fly next year. It's all good and a fancy certificate or a dinky trophy is always a bonus.

HEY
I figured out, the trophys are cheap! I just need to figure out what to buy myself a trophy for! Rooky of the year? Longest walk per nuton burned.
The most youths put up with, at one single launch? I guess the boyscout masters would beat me at that one!
My wife seams to think duel deploy is a waste, since its all about exersize to chase them. "POP THAT MAIN UP HIGH"
She has been complaining, "They all land so close" 😕

Scott e

I don’t care how the bonfire is done (weight or impulse), impulse was a suggestion because it is an easy number to come by on any commercial motor.

At this point I truly believe that those who want to participate in the AP bonfire should have to include that information on a flight card and check a small box in the corner of the card or something like that. There was a time when there were so few flights that it was easy enough to just include every flight, but that is not the case anymore and there is a fair amount of fliers that don’t really care about the AP bonfire. I say anyone that wants to compete for the bonfire should include the information on the flight card. The flier would even add up the totals of cluster or stage flights. I realize that if the contest were to be done in this manner, it would be on the flier to be honest, but we are all honest people.

Finally, I know some people don’t care about this little contest and the “certificate” that comes along with it but some people don’t burn much AP either so that may be easy for them to discard the contest. It may be viewed as incorrect for me to point this out but I just want to point out that a few of us put more money and work into that “certificate” then any other contest and I want to make sure that we get our certificate!

For the record too, some of us do view this as a contest, which I would think everyone would be happy to see. Back in 2006 Justin Freeberg made it his year’s work just to beat out Event Horizon’s first flight, and he did. Justin launched 4 M’s, 4 K’s and when he still hadn’t beat out event horizon, he stretched his checkbook and flew one more M in terrible weather in November just to beat Event Horizon. That is competition!

Well Joe, I have to say I am once again disappointed with the Contests of NCR. The contest states:

The club member who burns the most weight in Ammonium Perchlorate Composite Propellent according to the club launch logs from club sanctioned launches, wins...

It does not say:

The club member who burns the most weight in Ammonium Perchlorate Composite Propellent from the largest motor in the rocket only according to the club launch logs from club sanctioned launches, wins... -or-

The club member who burns the most weight in Ammonium Perchlorate Composite Propellent in the NCR database according to the club launch logs from club sanctioned launches, wins... -or-

The club member who burns the most weight in Ammonium Perchlorate Composite Propellent from certified motor only according to the club launch logs from club sanctioned launches, wins... -or-

The Colorado club member who burns the most weight in Ammonium Perchlorate Composite Propellent according to the club launch logs from club sanctioned launches, wins... -or-, -or- ,-or-

I'm sorry for being such a hard ass and I don't care about a trophy, certificate or whatever and even if I did burn the most AP I certainly would not travel all the way to the annual meeting to receive it. What I do care about is NCR consistently misrepresenting the rules about their contests.

This contest has unequivocally the easiest rule ever, "he who burns the most AP, wins". No ambiguity, no subjectivity, very straightforward, right? (enter Steve Martin voice here) But Noooooooooooooooo! We don't mean all the AP you can burn, only the biggest motor in the rocket. No wait, only Commercial, certified motors. No, No, No, Let's not keep the list up to date...

So please answer some more questions for me and anyone else who has read this far on this posting. You stated

Trying to enter more than one motor per flight creates other data entry headaches. Our databases and posted launch logs are almost unique to the hobby and all of the other clubs out there. Keeping track of all the details is usually left up to the individual fliers.

I agree that the posted NCR flight logs are unique for most clubs and are likely a nightmare to keep updated. But you last comment is what I need clarification on. I was suggesting the fliers send in the information to NCR eliminating the work of keeping up the motor database. What is wrong with that? Wouldn't that be more accurate reflection of what was actually flown?

We are trying to provide an insiders view of what everyone is doing with NCR and there are a few glitches here and there but the intent is good....In the meantime, knowing what you've done, or what anyone else has flown helps establish a baseline for what we hope to fly or will fly next year.

How good is the intent when the posted information grossly underestimates what a flier has flown? In my case it show <10% of the AP that I burned. How does that "knowing what you've done, or what anyone else has flown helps establish a baseline for what we hope to fly or will fly next year"? How can that accurately "provide an insiders view of what everyone is doing with NCR" when nearly everyone has flown more motors than is on the AP bonfire list?

I have a few suggestions for NCR. First, If you are not going to abide by the rules of the AP contest as it is posted, please post the rules you are going by. What motors will you allow to be included? What motors will you not include? Post the rules you are following for all member to follow.

I asked back in July about how to create a contest because I had written rules for an Upscale Contest. After months of virtual silence and only after I inquired a send time publicly on the forums Warren replied

I'm sorry folks, but as far as this Contest Director is concerned this contest is a go and I'm happy to run it. The executive committee still needs to meet to discuss the rules in detail and that just hasn't happened yet. We still plan to announce at Oktoberfest with the contest running until Oktoberfest '09.

Oktoberfest came and went with hardly a peep and I’m still trying to find out who is on this elusive “executive committee”? What powers do they have? What powers they don’t have? How does someone get on the “executive committee” or get removed? I’ve looked for any information on the NCR web site and could not find any. Please, PLEASE, let the members know What does it take to create or change a contest for NCR?

Doug

Simple answer is the code, when originally designed, only took into account single motor flights. The launch logs and flight cards that preceeded the code didn't have provision for it and both the original Volunteer programmer and the Volunteer programmer who ported the code to our current website didn't think of clustered, staged, or complex rockets. I inherited this code and while new launch log and associated contest code has been designed, we haven't had the volunteer bandwidth to get it implemented yet. Our current PHP programmer hasn't had the time to deal with a 40-60 hour rewrite of this portion of the site nor has anyone had the 5 or 6 hours necessary to validate the existing contents of the motor database, much less who knows how many hours to research all the new motor data and then add it to the motor database. Of course we could pay to have this done, but my most conservative estimate of time involved would put this project in the $7000-$9000 range - a good bit more than the club's bank account.

By the way, the executive committee consists of Joe Hinton, Ken Plattner, Ed Dawson, myself, and anyone else Joe chooses to consult. It's not a formal structure beyond the elected office of president and who he choses to drag into it.

Warren

Not sure why we need to worry about the code if people just put the weight of their motor/motors on the flight card with the flight.

Art

Not sure why we need to worry about the code if people just put the total weight of the propellant(s) on the flight card with the flight.

Hell, just send it in after the launch. It doesn't even have to be on the flight card does it? This contest should not have to require PHP programmer hours of reprogramming does it? Keep it simple, anyone wanting to compete provide the weight of their motors to the one person who enters in the appropriate log. I edited Art's quote as a motion and I'll second it. All in favor?

Doug

Doug-
I've heard a few club members talk enthusiastically about your upscale contest idea. I myself am interested, and hope it comes to fruition. No reason to give up on the idea so soon.

Chad Moore

The AP bonfire has ALWAYS been an automatically computed result from the input of the flight cards. If it requires anything manual beyond entering the flight card data and occasionally updating the motor database, I'm afraid that contest is over.

The chief problem is no one will take responsibility for maintaining the motor database. If someone would volunteer to maintain the motor database, the major issue would be moot.

The issue of programming is purely one of accomodating clusters, staged and complex rockets and has been planned for more than 2 years.

Again, let me reiterate this - if managing a contest like this requires any additional manual work beyond entering of flght cards - the contest is dead. It's a big job that has been getting bigger every year and Joe Hinton is the one burdened with it.

Warren