The AP bonfire has ALWAYS been an automatically computed result from the input of the flight cards. If it requires anything manual beyond entering the flight card data and occasionally updating the motor database, I'm afraid that contest is over.

Just because something has ALWAYS been done a certain way does NOT make it the BEST way nor the RIGHT way of doing it nor should it be the basis for CONTINUING to do it the THAT way.

You already have in place someone entering in the flight card data. All I am suggesting is entering in one more piece of data from those that wish to enter the contest. This is not even all the flight cards. That has to easier that maintaining the data base of every motor including experimental motors.

Think about it Warren, the motors can still be listed on the flight log, even the largest motor only, but its not linked to any database. You have one extra entry for those wishing enter the contest with the total mass of the propellant that doesn't even have to appear on the web page but counts for the AP bonfire contest. AND no one has to maintain the database of motors. I am not asking anything more that is what is already being done, entering data from the flight cards. Right now, no one is maintaining the database and at the end of the year you have to go back and recalculate who burned the most AP. This is easier than entering one more piece of data from some of the flight cards right after the launch?

Finally, the quote I posted for the rules of this contest are your rules that you ALWAYS been using and you are NOT even following them. You should change the contest and post the actual rules of the contest, that you only count the largest motor of a rocket that you have in your database, or if you are not going to follow the rules of the contest then it should be abandoned.

Doug

Everyone needs to keep their panties from getting bunched up. All good points of discussion. From a hysterical perspective, I mean historical, when PHITS and TRM were flying, the bent of competition developed between who was flying the highest or the most. When the two clubs merged, it made sense to continue tracking fliers, flights, motors used, etc. Some of the information was readily available and some wasn't and some considerations liked staged or clusters flights weren't considered. Most of the geeks I know that care about such things keep their own records and can tell you more than enough details regarding their flights from years ago if anyone cares to listen.

Somehow, some time ago, I volunteered to try and direct those of us in those clubs and in this hobby that wanted to stay and play together. There is no hidden agenda or conspiracy to hide the weight of AP burned - home mixed or otherwise. Administrating volunteers is an oxy-moron and it definately takes more than this moron to keep any administration working. I was basically self-appointed and have asked for help when and where I couldn't do it alone.

Obviously, some of us take this hobby more seriously than others. Please remember that rocket science and the hobby of rocketry in general is supposed to be fun and more importantly safe for all to enjoy.

I don't like to preach from a podium or soapbox or from a camp chair next to the fire - We are all volunteers. Build 'em and fly 'em for the love and the passion - not for the height attained or the weight involved - and may the joy be infectious and noble. Praise and Thanksgiving for rocketry!

Doug, the issue is that the code does not exist to enter "one more piece of data" - the database schema doesn't currently have the field for it nor does the code that dynamically generates the input screen Joe uses or the screen that reports the data.

If you're suggesting that this contest be run "manually" with someone going through all the flight cards and manually running totals - even once a year, I hope you're volunteering because I certainly don't have the time or energy for that. All of our contests are as automated as possible with the manual effort 100% focused on Joe's entry of flight card data. If I could find a way to automate that with OCR or some other data input method, I surely would.

As it stands now, ALL flights are included in the AP bonfire - EVERYONE participates. It's not optional. When you click the AP Bonfire contest link on the Contests page, the server does a complete total of everything burned year-to-date - period.

Some years back I spec'd a complete rewrite of this so as to support clusters, staged, and complex rockets, but we just haven't had a programmer available with the time to do this task. As I said, it's probably a 40-50 hour project to rewrite big chunks of the launch log maintenance and display code as well as the AP Bonfire contest code - not to mention several other parts of the codebase that would be impacted by those changes.

Really, the first thing I could really use is a volunteer to maintain the motor database. I see Ed has offered so please contact me offline and we can get together - it'll only take about 10 or 15 minutes of training to make sure you got it down. The computer part is easy - the hard part is pulling all the information together, validating it and entering it into the database.

Warren

Im not a programer.
And I am not necessarily volentering Joe to do more work.
But untill you can get the code rewritten, just enter 2 flight cards for the same shot with a note behind it. Multiple engines are not that common at regular launches.
I use a older (not so well known anymore) relational data base (R-base) for my bussiness.
When I was writing the application, I ran into many times, things that it couldnt do, or that just didnt work, like they were suppose too, for many diferant reasons, many of which have been solved since the early 90s.
Affordible desktops just were not powerful enough at the time.
So R-base published "work arounds"
Ways to get it done another way.
2 or 3 or whatever, flight cards might be a good short term work around.

Besides that, I might pick up a couple of nutons from my estes 5 stager. 😉

But untill you can get the code rewritten, just enter 2 flight cards for the same shot with a note behind it. Multiple engines are not that common at regular launches.

That is a simple solution. So for my two stage, each with K700's, I could enter one card as the sustainer, and another card as the booster. They were in fact Two separate launches, albient one was starting 5000 feet higher than the other.

or... K+K=L just enter the total as an equivalent single motor. (assuming the K is L/2 or greater)

FYI- Scott, from what I'm gathering BP is not counted in this., and also what I was told by Joe, the count only includes those launches at an NCR site event, and does not include launches at other sites, like LDRS, CRASH, NARAM or Alamogordo, etc

Thank you Joe, for all you do.

FYI- Scott, from what I'm gathering BP is not counted in this., and also what I was told by Joe, the count only includes those launches at an NCR site event, and does not include launches at other sites, like LDRS, CRASH, NARAM or Alamogordo,

What!! 😡
The rage I am feeling, now my panties are in a wad! 😉

Scott, take a Midol. 😆 Mike, thank you for your kind words but check your math. 2 K's, depending on the K's, added together might still equal a K. Typically, regardless of the number of motors, it's still one flight. A Saturn Five launch, or a Delta launch, only counts as one flight, regardless of the number of motors involved. Corrupting one data base to try and correct another doesn't make sense to me yet. The AP Bonfire data will eventually get corrected before the annual meeting and for the next year et cetera. But there is sure to be some other problems somewhere with something else we're doing that will require analysis and field repairs. If we aren't tweaking things to make them better, we'll tweak 'em anyway. Just because it ain't broke, doesn't mean we can't fix it. Whatever...... I need another drink and want to smell AP burning.

Okay, since I didn't have anything else to do (joke) I re-read these postings and will make the following observations. The AP Bonfire data has been collected and sort of corrected and very recently updated and apart from not including every motor burned (according to manufactures weight) from clusters or staged flights [still credited to a single,largest class motor used], and not including the weight of any research loads flown or grains burned in the fire, and allowing for errors in the information included from Thrustcurve.org and the other sources of data of supposedly reliable reputation, and operator input error, and the conjunction of the planets, and the failure of bailout plans, and the weather, and whatever else impacts how all of this is supposed to tie together, IT IS WHAT IT IS.

I believe it was started more as a means to roughly track what was being consumed on NCR's launch sites and not really as a contest, although I undertand that lots of fliers view it as that. Surprizingly or maybe not, David Letterman is not going to do a Top Ten reasons list for flying (or not) with NCR. The asterik that should be included with this contest and because of the credible link to Global Warming and the Economic ruin of our civilization we have come to know and love, will mostly go un-noticed by the silent majority or anyone else that really cares. Participation may vary. Contents may have settled in shipping and the ability to fly or operate fancy machinery may have suffered from long term mental health problems. Always enjoy responsibly! Best used before offer expires. Void where prohibited.

I didn't win, I wasn't trying to, but I'll do better next year. That is, if I ever get around to building the rest of my fleet. No offense intended or implied to any member or friend, living or dead, in the expression of my opinion.

I believe it was started more as a means to roughly track what was being consumed on NCR's launch sites and not really as a contest

It may have not have started as a contest, but it is a contest with rules that are not being followed.

Please consider this as a formal motion for the annual meeting for the "Contest Director" to amend the rules to accurately reflect the rules of the contest that are actually being used or abandoned the contest.

I'm still wondering what's wrong with the rules or how we aren't following them:

Rules for this contest are the ultimate in simplicity. The contest runs from 1/1 through 12/31 every year. The club member who burns the most weight in Ammonium Perchlorate Composite Propellent according to the club launch logs from club sanctioned launches, wins... some cool prize or another. You have to show up to the club meeting in January following the end of the year to collect it. By the way, since this is only including club sanctioned launches, only NAR/Tripoli certified motors count.

Please note the phrase "according to the club launch logs"... Nothing is said about anything beyond that. Personally I don't care how much AP you burn... if it isn't in the club launch logs, it doesn't count. That, by the way, includes ONLY the motors in the launch log motor database - if the motor isn't there, I guess that's the breaks.

If you're implying some requirement on a volunteer organization with very few volunteers and very little time that we have to keep up with whatever motors are out there - I hereby appoint you the volunteer to maintain the motor database used for computing the AP Bonfire amounts.

Warren