Perhaps two classes of records? or open up a hybrids, staged, EX, etc. section in the records section?

Good input, good points, no argument from me (so long as you don't bogart both of those F32s 😉 )

I Like these suggestions here alot John, Especially with the new approved and sanctioned research launch days. Really its not totaly fair to try to lump all the attempts into one big bundle. We can have stuff based via comercial motors from micro to O powered. We can do a seperate Hybrid records and Research as well. It would I belive open up contest and people purring in efforts from many different directions here at a club based level. Probably spark some interest with it even more having divided groups. But thats just My opinion...

So John as im sure you are planning, but when do you think about maybe attempting the N record for yourself... Im thinking about doing something with the M and N myself as well... maybe a little freindly and fun competion for ole time sake eh?? You know me.. just like to keep it fun..

I guess in the end here, I should be clear and say this...

A) NCR Club altitude records SHOULD be flown at NCR launch sites.

B) In exceptional cases (extreme waivers, etc.), club members can take credit for a serious altitude record IF it is flown to an altitude greater than any NCR waiver altitude.

That leaves any flight at TC out of the picture because they're best case AGL waiver is lower than our worst-case AGL waiver. If you fly a Q to 96,000' at BALLS, then by all means you got the NCR Q motor record... but don't expect to fly a K to 28,000' at BALLS and get credit for the NCR club K record. You'll have the Tripoli World record, but the club K record will still be John Wilke's North Site flight of 20,719' on an AT K250. Our waiver covers the altitude so go ahead and fly it at the North Site.

Look for the clear and detailed rules for flying and claiming an NCR club altitude record to be online within the next 2 or 3 days at most: Single Motor, Hybrid Single Motor, Multi-stage, Clustered and Research variations on the same theme. We're also thinking about a separate category for Boosted Darts. It will be a few weeks before we have all of the various altitude contests online. IF you have flights that would qualify for a club record (clustered, staged, ex, dart, etc.) Please contact me with ALL the particulars - total impulse, altitude, rocket name, names of 2 NCR member witnesses, date, etc.)

Warren

Warren, please note (unless you have thought of this already) that the FULL waiver is not attainable for flight. I do believe that by most or some rules that you are allowed to only fly to a specific percentage of altitude of the total waiver. Just like with research being allowed up to 75% of the total waiver. so there for it would be anything over that restricted amount would be viable to launch at a venue with a higher waiver. I believe that the Commercial aspects of this may pertain as well. Not just research. But I may be wrong.

I don't believe that is the case with commercial. The rule for research is because research motors aren't always quite as reliable and consistent with the thrust curves, and in some cases, an exact thrust curve is not even known, so the extra safety margin allows for a more powerful motor than expected without any waiver-breaking.

I certainly can't find anything like that on the NAR or tripoli website (though that doesn't mean that it isn't there, I could just be blind 🙄 )

I've have it in personal correspondence from Pat Gordzelik that Research flights are supposedly limited to 75% of the waiver. That means predicted altitude. You won't get in trouble if you fly over that amount unless you actually break the waiver, but you cannot plan to fly a research motor more than 75% of the legal waiver. There is a certain amount of honor system to it.

On the other hand, I've never heard of such a restriction on certified motors. My understanding is I can plan to make a flight to 100% of the waivered altitude, though I have some vague memory that there might be a 95% rule or something like that.

Warrren

So John as im sure you are planning, but when do you think about maybe attempting the N record for yourself... Im thinking about doing something with the M and N myself as well... maybe a little freindly and fun competion for ole time sake eh?? You know me.. just like to keep it fun..

Conway, I had thought seriously about doing a TRA "N" altitude attempt, but later decided to pass. I got to counting the pennies and it was a big pile of pennies!

I would float this to the group -- If we had interested folks who wanted to do an M and/or an N boost for BALLS 2008, I'd be interested in a group project. I think the rocket would run $600-$800, and the motor of choice (CTI Moonburning N) is another $800. Now you see why I don't want to do it on my own :-O If we got a team of 5-7 guys together to do it, I'm probably interested.

Further to that, we could potentially use the same airframe with the CTI long burning M. I believe we could possibly top 30K on the M and give 40K a run for the money with the N.

Can't do it this year, too many irons in the fire. BALLS '08, anyone?

Thus the reason I stated it may pertain and I might be wrong. I will let those like Warren who has the contest management position make the final rule. But I'm pretty sure that by the rules they have a 90% of the given waiver that your allowed to fly up to for commercial motors.. Or at least it used to be that way. Either way I just want to make sure we have the rules read for ACTUAL flyable space.

boy..... for some reason being able to fly to 90 % of the waiver for comercial stuff sticks in my heard for some reason.

John, I totally understand the $$$ of the issue.. hell just spent close to 1,100 on my last flight for motor and case and it was a baby N. I would venture to say as I do have some other Top secret bigger projects ahead that after that I would love to be on a M or even N altitude smashing team. So if it come to play I would be game.

Now for the rest of where I was going with it JW is me Just looking for a good time to have some good competitive fun mostly. In my 3 year absence I have missed the days as it were of going toe to toe but still sharing and helping one another as we used to. some of my most enjoyable time spent from past. Seeing you and Warren talk it up as well as your ever welcome comments on "come on in the waters fine" gets me feeling nostalgic and amped up about doing so high flying stuff. Not sure who all else really like to compete in Altitude stuff besides the 2 of you but you may as well count me in...AGAIN....

So here is to FUN!!

Also John Congrats on becoming a TAP...!!!!!

"come on in the waters fine" gets me feeling nostalgic and amped up about doing so high flying stuff.

There are at least five people who could take essentially any one of the records - I mean that utterly sincerely. My goal this last year was to increment the records, but the conditions weren't that good... I never even got to fly a single J or an M attempt. I only flew one H, and I'd have to look, but I don't think I flew an I, either.

Gosh, I wish there was an I132 out there. And to think I just tossed the one I had into a rocket I had laying around. Doh! Right after I flew mine, AT burned down, and now that motor is getting decertified.....

JW

Friends, Just to clarify, our standing waiver at the North site is 20,000' AGL, not 25,000 (yet) and we have not received confirmation of our requested windows to 35,000' AGL for MHM and OF (yet). Plan accordingly and please, reasearch or commercial, DO NOT break the waiver, even if our newest TAP says it's okay (Yehaw JW). It isn't. I know of the 75% rule for Research and am checking again on the commercial aspect. I don't remeber any specific limit other than the ceiling.

I suppose a record on a small motor set at the Bear Creeek on theo and recognized by NAR or same at Pueblo, CS, and flown by an NCR member would count in my book.

New Guy Input:

Club records should be held by club members. If you are not a NCR member and want to make a record attempt at our launches, then join the club! $25 isn't to much to ask if you want your attempt certified by NCR (this from the dead-broke dad). Maybe some lee-way could be given to CRASH or other Colorado club's members that don't have high waivers, and/or to out-of-state visitors. Just as I would hope to get some lee-way at someone elses' club.. I can think of nothing more disappointing than making a record and not having it 'certified' because of a paperwork glitch!

Altitude record flights should be stated so in advance (want plenty witnesses, ja?). Altitude records should be at the same or similar sites (N & Atlas are similar, but Hartsel would be a different record due to different conditions). Second most disappointing thing I can think of would be having a record flight beaten by someone who had an unfair advantage, such as a launch from a 'better' site. Thus I propose several sets of altitude records to match conditions: N/Atlas records, Hartsel records, 'other' field records (notably for higher waivers), and last an overall record from all fields by NCR members (for those guys that really want the ultimate record!). Myself, I'll probably just be happy with some fun competition at the Pawnee sites, and having a 'record set' for just those sites makes the attempts meaningful.

I'm a proponent of the 'flyable-the-same-day" method of determining if a record attempt is valid. I think NAR is a little strict there (minor zippers and cracked fillets, oh my!), but the "bucket of parts with a beeping altimeter" doesn't cut it (unless, of course, it flew again that day as an epoxy special.. just kidding, but I would! maybe just stuff it all into a LOC V-2 as payload...)

Fair, Fun, & Easy (relatively) - the hallmarks of a good competition.

I don't hold any altitude records and don’t really have any interest in the work it takes to launch or find high altitude/extreme rockets. However I would like to make a suggestion, how about two listings for Altitude records, a member altitude record and a site altitude record. One would be only for NCR members but open to any launch, the other for any flyer but it has to be flown at an NCR event.

Then the fun would be to see how many people can get on both lists.

I will leave it up to others to figure out how to populate the list.

Dale.

I think we're gradually coming to a consensus on a number of contentious points here. Let me see if I can summarize.

1 - NCR Club altitude records should, in general, be restricted to club members flying from the club launch sites with the sole exceptions being altitude shots requiring a greater waiver altitude than those at NCR venues. (Club Records)

2 - There should be recognition given to non-NCR club members who break NCR altitude records at NCR launch sites. (Site Records)

3 - There should be multiple categories of altitude records including: single motor, hybrid single motor, clustered motors, multi-staged flights, and complex (clustered + staged) flights as well as Research motor variants for all of the above record types.

4 - All these categories will be added to a much expanded Club Altitude record section in the website.

5 - Altitude records will continue to require a minimum of two NCR club members in good standing as official witnesses and the record will be formally applied for by using the NCR Altitude Record Form. NCR club members MUST be in good standing with all dues paid in order to be awarded an NCR club altitude record, otherwise they will be listed as holding a site record only if they exceed the first place NCR club record then in effect.

6 - The rocket must be immediately re-flyable with "minimum" repairs in order to qualify as a successful altitude shot. See Tripoli rules regarding the claiming of altitude records and the condition of the bird on recovery. (Note well that John Wilke once clearly took the Tripoli L altitude record, but due to losing his nose cone during deployment, he considered his shot DQ'd.)

7 - Electronic Altimeters used to establish the maximum altitude must come from a list of "approved" electronic altimeters in order for the altitude to be declared official. They must be unmodified in any way (excluding minor hardware modifications such as changing out the terminals or added holes to facilitate mounting). This list of approved altimeters has yet to be developed and will be determined through consultation with Tripoli and NAR technical staff. Flying multiple altimeters is strongly recommended as this provides backup in the event of a disputed altitude. Purely Accelerometer-based altimeters shall not be acceptable for altitude record purposes as altitude is not directly sensed but inferred from acceleration data. Barometric or GPS based altitudes are required. In the event of a flight with multiple altimeters or altimeter + GPS position sensing, the lowest altitude reported by the various devices is the official altitude. In extreme cases, it may be asked that the altimeters used be submitted for testing to determine how accurate and precise the reported altitude is.

8 - Altitude record attempts MUST be declared prior to the flight, the altitude record box checked off on the flight card and the reported altitudes must be noted in the Post-Flight field on the flight card. NOTE: ALL reported altitudes from all installed altitude sensing devices (barometric altimeters, GPS units) must be recorded on the altitude record application form along with the model/brand of all altimeters, the names of all witnesses, LCO and RSO along with detailed information on weather conditions at the time of the flight. (ground air temperature, wind speed and direction, cloud cover, etc.)

This is my first pass on these consolidated rules. I'm seeking more input from you folks as to what I might have missed in this list or where I am over-stepping.

Warren

1 - NCR Club altitude records should, in general, be restricted to club members flying from the club launch sites with the sole exceptions being altitude shots requiring a greater waiver altitude than those at NCR venues. (Club Records)

2 - There should be recognition given to non-NCR club members who break NCR altitude records at NCR launch sites. (Site Records)

3 - There should be multiple categories of altitude records including: single motor, hybrid single motor, clustered motors, multi-staged flights, and complex (clustered + staged) flights as well as Research motor variants for all of the above record types.

So it sounds like there would be NCR altitude records for the following categories:

single motor for NCR members
hybrid single motor for NCR members
clustered motors for NCR members
multi-staged flights for NCR members
complex (clustered + staged) flights for NCR members
Research motor for NCR members

single motor for NCR launch sites
hybrid single motor for NCR launch sites
clustered motors for NCR launch sites
multi-staged flights for NCR launch sites
complex (clustered + staged) flights for NCR launch sites
Research motor for NCR launch sites

All for every given motor class. Did I miss anything?

Doug