Yes Bruce, flown plenty of stuff up through K's. Never flown an L but only because I haven't come to terms with a tracker yet. I have an almost complete 3" all glass DD bird that I plan to fly my first L in, but I'm not willing to risk the flight until I get my hands on a decent tracking device. Hoping to do that at Mayhem. Also have an extreme wildman that I bought during that Black Friday sale he had. That baby will be built for M's too but fly on L's until I do my L3. My intent is to build the extreme wildman exactly as I plan to build my L3 bird, then figure out what I like and what I want to improve on.

You're good to go!

In the club, we've at least 5-8 guys with Garmin Astros and DC-20/DC-30 Dog collars.

I've sent up four different rockets with the tracker this year. I've tracked one four miles from the launch area. I feel I would have lost at least two of these rockets without it.

If you get a dog collar (about $150 for a DC-30) I'm sure one of us will be out at each launch with their Astro to track it.

You are welcome to use my Astro. We can also walk you through its use in about ten minutes. They are truly amazing.

You can fit one in its original packaging (minus the collar...) in a 54mm coupler. I stuff them in the nosecone of my birds, which have included a Performance Little Dog Dual Deploy (4 flights); PML Sudden Rush 4 flights; my Stang -- 3 inch, five-fin scratch built FG; and a Performance Arrow.

I've thumped both my DC-30's pretty hard. Once in apogee deploy only--main failed-- resulting in a flat spin to the deck (last launch...) and the other in an apogee stuck separation and ballistic main deployment resulting in a piece parade to the ground. Both DC-30's survived.

I am planning on sending up my first L Shot using it. I would feel uncomfortable doing so without a tracker.

Check with whomever will be certifying you. You have to land within an area cylinder to cert successfully, for some, or most, or all. I don't remember. I think it may depend on whether you're going NAR or TRA, only your cert people will know for sure. ❓ After that, however,...

Check with whomever will be certifying you. You have to land within an area cylinder to cert successfully, for some, or most, or all. I don't remember. I think it may depend on whether you're going NAR or TRA, only your cert people will know for sure. ❓ After that, however,...

Yes, but the radius is 2 miles for the standard waiver, and 5 for the extended, so that's only really a concern if you're pushing the limits of the standard (and don't have the extended) or if you dump the main at apogee or something.

Oh, and my L3 rocket has flown 4 times since my L3 last Mayhem, on 3 Ms and an L. Just because it was my L3 rocket doesn't mean that I'm going to go easy on it. Next Mayhem, it gets an N (and not a wussy one either). I figure why build a rocket to fly only once?

As for Aeropacks? My L3 is a 5 inch loosely based on a PR Intimidator 5, and the 98mm Aeropack fits perfectly.

The only reason this was mentioned was because of Brett's question of seeking altitude as opposed to the launch it, watch it, recover it, K.I.S.S. We're so proud of you, Chris. Please keep us informed of your profound accomplishments. 😉 Quick edit here, Chris. We all actually DO want to know what you will achieve in the future... though most of all/if not all will be security related. 😉 Keep 'em flying, young man, and keep all of us proud of you, as you will, and just remember who flew with you.

Bret, thanks again for the ride, still owe you gas money. Here's that fin jig template that JW turned me on to:
http://www.payloadbay.com/index.php?page=Tools&action=FINGUIDES

And, if you need two rail buttons for your L3, you can have two of mine. That'll go toward the gas money. 😉 If you and your wife are going to the annual Co Rock dinner--and it is highly recommended, remind me, and I'll bring them. They're lucky. I donated two to Crhis L. for his Deuce, and that was one amazing rocket!

And, one for parachute size:
http://www.onlinetesting.net/cgi-bin/descent3.3.cgi

And, I sit corrected. I didn't remember that the Competitor 5 has pointed fins, I just had mine made. Always wanted a true, simple, pure delta.
http://www.libertylaunchsystems.com/apps/wpisa.dll/LLS/RocketKits/PerformanceRocketry/RKPR0004?:6661993FB45C4788ACECECBA2C838943.4234:

Thanks Bruce. That fin pattern tool is awesome.

Anyone else with L3 words of wisdom to share? Kinda surprised there hasn't been more here, because sure as heck once I certify L3 I'm going to know EVERYTHING! 😈

(kidding of course, just sounded good) 😛

And , of course, you know this from me:

Anyone else with L3 words of wisdom to share? Kinda surprised there hasn't been more here, because sure as heck once I certify L3 I'm going to know EVERYTHING!

Since I know everything... NOT. But, that is the absolute beauty of this hobby, NO ONE does or CAN know everything. We all do things we learned from others. And, yeah, I'm surprised there hasn't been more on this thread. How those who tried and didn't quite make it to L3? NO ONE doesn't have a bad day, even though they've done things correctly and should have made the cert... except for the tangled harness that didn't release the main properly, or I ground tested, but it took the secondary charge to release the main (oh, wait, that's me), to drogue or not to drogue--that is the question, whether 'tis nobler... this is for JW, or just anything. Does anyone else looking for L3 have questions, whether you are L2 or L1? This is the final step to flying anything you want within financial means and waivers. Our brother here is asking questions... got answers, or milk?

I decided to abandon the KISS philosophy and go with what I was excited to build, attempt and fly.... and am nevertheless still working on the L3 cert. 2 attempts, a complete loss and a second purchase/ build of a 98 mongoose and even with a small M still breaking 30k has it's challenges, least of which is waiting for those 35k windows, all without the fire restriction and minimal wind/rain/etc. All of a sudden the available windows to attempt my L3 at NCR last year turned out to be a single weekend. But I am still happy with my decision to try something challenging. If I fail on the 3rd attempt and the rocket is non-repairable I may abandon it and try something new, maybe a big upscale of my favorite childhood estes rocket. But I would still look back and be glad that I did something that personally challenged me. Trying to do an "easy" L3 build seems a little like trying to reach L3 for the certification and title rather than for the process. Just my .02 -Sean

Sounds like one of my L2 attempts Sean... I wanted to tickle our 20K waiver. Whatever happened, it is still out there on the prairie somewhere - probably 8' down. Lots of people told me not to get complicated or overambitious and I finally learned.

My 4" MD bird is in process, but mine will have to fly at BALLS. Let's just say 6 grain 98mm with the main in the nose and leave it at that.

Joined: May 02, 2008
Posts: 89

Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:37 pm Post subject:

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I decided to abandon the KISS philosophy and go with what I was excited to build, attempt and fly.... and am nevertheless still working on the L3 cert. 2 attempts, a complete loss and a second purchase/ build of a 98 mongoose and even with a small M still breaking 30k has it's challenges, least of which is waiting for those 35k windows, all without the fire restriction and minimal wind/rain/etc. All of a sudden the available windows to attempt my L3 at NCR last year turned out to be a single weekend. But I am still happy with my decision to try something challenging. If I fail on the 3rd attempt and the rocket is non-repairable I may abandon it and try something new, maybe a big upscale of my favorite childhood estes rocket. But I would still look back and be glad that I did something that personally challenged me. Trying to do an "easy" L3 build seems a little like trying to reach L3 for the certification and title rather than for the process. Just my .02 -Sean

Sean, that is the journey. If someone wants to do the quick and relatively easy L3, it is there. But if, in most cases, that is done, there will be profound failure in the future, or not. I did mine with pure delta fins made-to-order on a kit, and added another 3 foot to it, with an AT M1315. Respectable but certainly not earth shattering… thank goodness. We all must do what we must do, for whatever reasons, and find people along the way who believe in us. Warren is the perfect example of someone who could have done it years before he did, but he was wise in doing it when he was ready and WANTED TO, one of the best L3’s I’ve ever seen. You only have to do it once… then if you’ve earned it, you’ll do it again, and then everyone will breathe easier. I did that and will hopefully do it a third time, and more. Though JW is on his 13th M and above launch. This is not a competition; it really and truly is a journey. Period.

I decided to abandon the KISS philosophy and go with what I was excited to build, attempt and fly.... and am nevertheless still working on the L3 cert. 2 attempts, a complete loss and a second purchase/ build of a 98 mongoose and even with a small M still breaking 30k has it's challenges, least of which is waiting for those 35k windows, all without the fire restriction and minimal wind/rain/etc. All of a sudden the available windows to attempt my L3 at NCR last year turned out to be a single weekend. But I am still happy with my decision to try something challenging. If I fail on the 3rd attempt and the rocket is non-repairable I may abandon it and try something new, maybe a big upscale of my favorite childhood estes rocket. But I would still look back and be glad that I did something that personally challenged me. Trying to do an "easy" L3 build seems a little like trying to reach L3 for the certification and title rather than for the process. Just my .02 -Sean

I absolutely agree with this. I went for a similar attempt - I wanted 3+ miles and supersonic for my L3. It worked the first time, yes, but I certainly could have gone easier if my only goal was the cert itself. IMO, the journey is more important than the destination. Build what you want for your L3, rather than simply something to "get an easy cert" (unless of course that's what you want).

I decided to abandon the KISS philosophy and go with what I was excited to build, attempt and fly.... and am nevertheless still working on the L3 cert. 2 attempts, a complete loss and a second purchase/ build of a 98 mongoose and even with a small M still breaking 30k has it's challenges, least of which is waiting for those 35k windows, all without the fire restriction and minimal wind/rain/etc. All of a sudden the available windows to attempt my L3 at NCR last year turned out to be a single weekend. But I am still happy with my decision to try something challenging. If I fail on the 3rd attempt and the rocket is non-repairable I may abandon it and try something new, maybe a big upscale of my favorite childhood estes rocket. But I would still look back and be glad that I did something that personally challenged me. Trying to do an "easy" L3 build seems a little like trying to reach L3 for the certification and title rather than for the process. Just my .02 -Sean

I absolutely agree with this. I went for a similar attempt - I wanted 3+ miles and supersonic for my L3. It worked the first time, yes, but I certainly could have gone easier if my only goal was the cert itself. IMO, the journey is more important than the destination. Build what you want for your L3, rather than simply something to "get an easy cert" (unless of course that's what you want).

So many people insist that the only good way to do a cert flight is to make is smaller/simpler than what you plan to fly with the cert. To me, the flip side makes more sense, that you should cert with the type of rocket you want to fly after you get the cert, so you can best take advantage of the guidance and oversight you get during the process. If/when I go for my L3, it will be with a flight intended to break an altitude record. If I flew "low and slow" for the cert flight, my first level-3 flight would be a record attempt anyway, so for me it makes sense to have oversight on that kind of a flight from the beginning.

To each their own I sez... For my L3, I wanted to avoid the hubris I had going into my L2 cert process which ended up causing the loss or destruction of 4 birds before I successfully certed. As it was, I still topped 14,200' AGL with a smallish M and a fairly substantial rocket that was intended to be a testbed for some construction techniques I was developing as well as a platform to test some future electronics projects. I wanted to cert L3 on my first try as well as to have a bird that would survive intact in the event of a deployment failure on the main. I succeeded perfectly on all counts.

Now for my post L3-cert projects, I think you'll see me go substantially further out on a limb. A 4" MD project meant for a 6 grain 98mm motor with the any further details remaining unsaid until it flies because I just don't want anyone trying to preempt me. Lets just say no one has done it quite this way before. I'll leave it at simply saying I'm combining everything I've learned about altitude birds from the folks with a real track record for success. The main question on that project now remains the motor.