Oh, fine, Doug, like he wants NASA quality movies of his L3 flight. 😉

I agree with the suggestions to slow down a bit and enjoy flying.

Thanks to Many, I have learned to slow down a bit. Joe H. has
probably been the most helpful in that department.

I only get to a few NCR launches a year. So when I show up, I am
in 5th gear to get things done.

I got My Level Two in 2007. I had not planned to in early 2007 but things
just worked out that way. I flew the rocket twice with no problem. I have
had no Level Two Rocket crash. I hope I do not.

For Myself...There is so much to learn and understand before I even think
of a Level Three. Not to mention the price.

Have a great day.

PS You Rockets Look Great

8) For you 98mm type guys, Cesaroni makes an M2505 White Thunder. I saw one fly, very Bada__! Uses the 98/7680 case. Flat nasty! 😆

I would be willing to help as a TAP member. Please feel free to email or contact me here as well.

Just some thoughts and recommendation.

A level 3 cert is a serious project to undertake. Most cost a fair amount and are not a project that should be rushed through. I highly recommend that you have a fair amount of previous experience in the L1 and L2 ranges of motors as a M motor or above is a much more highly powerful device then most L2 flyers are used to. Its big jump to go from J350's and 54mm K motors and the same things that worked for design in those will not be the same for M and larger. Getting experience in the 75mm motor sizes of L is a good idea before starting a larger project. Many of the smaller motors even in the K class can and will easily go past the waiver of the Atlas site. L motors can exceed 20K. M motors can exceed 30K and so on. My post is to make sure to think things through before rushing in.

You must ask 2 TAP members to work with you on your project. The whole project must be approved by the TAP before you may begin any construction. You will need to do some design and pre-work papers to document and show how it will be constructed, materials, expected performance and more. I highly recommend to visit the Tripoli web site and look over what is required to do a L3 cert. I have posted below various links from the Tripoli site for you.

http://www.tripoli.org/cert/howto_level3.shtml

http://www.tripoli.org/cert/level3_QandA.shtml

http://www.tripoli.org/cert/data_capture.shtml

Please feel free to give me a shout. Would be glad to chat with you.

My email is constevens@cowisp.net

Conway

PS I will be at the meeting in Ault this weekend as well.

I was under the impression that the 12,000 foot waiver was based on the distance to the road, 1/2 the vertical distance.

Is not that independant of the TRA safety code distance for separation of the launch to the RSO and spectators (about 650 feet for an M motor), which would mean we would need to set the launch pad further away from the parking area?

If it is absolutely not possible to launch from the Atlas site in Feb then I'll either HAVE to wait or find another place, adding sufficient weight to stay under whatever waiver is at that venue. I figured last night that filling the nose cone with 5 lbs of water (for example) would keep me below 11,500.

My TRA number is 11583 and I joined three months ago. TRA member #11584 is now listed as an L3, so he is moving along quickly as well.

I know everyone means well, but to ask me to "slow down" is like asking me to stop breathing. I need the jazz of tight program goals to keep on living. I've been a product development engineer for over 30 years and it has never taken me more than 4 months (on new technology) to design and build a pre-production unit. I'm talking big stuff here. I redesigned and hand built an optical disk drive that I designed previously for commercial use to launch in the space shuttle to be installed in the MIR space station. It had counter-rotating actuators to keep from adding moments to the space station.

I only had 4 weeks to build the 220 pound Robotica Series II champion (Discovery Channel) and had 6 weeks to get two new bots to Robot Wars in London. The list of short cycle accomplishments is endless so I won't bore you. Since Sun bought STK I have no outlet for my creative juices so building rockets is going to be my main passion for the next year or two. I currently have 25 patents issued and 11 pending, but my current position does not offer me any opportunity for creating intellectual property, so NAR, Triploli, CRASH and NCR are my project teams.

FYI, the geeky looking short kid in the long sleeved plaid shirt is me (at 14) in 1961 at the NAR Peak City Section site in Colorado Springs. This was on the north side of what is now Garden of the Gods road and is cuurently occupied by the Hewlett-Packard complex. The picture is out of the 1963 Estes Catalog. I was able to go to NARAM-2 and 3, since they were both in Colorado, and I ended up nationally #4 in NAR contest points.

[Non-rocketry Pictures removed by the Moderator as Off Topic and also taking up too much space in the forums.]

Man, I remember that Estes picture! That's you! Cool! I'm a STK legacy Sun guy who was out in a RIF over a year and a half ago. Listen, I definitely understand your drive. I gave myself a year to do the L3, and there are those who may have said I was pushing it. Regardless of what others think, it's between you and your TAPs. You've already had Art and Conway express interest, even that guy in Iowa. 🙂 They are the ones you have to impress, no one else.

I'll look at adding ballast (would sand be a good choice? lead shot? 10 Big Macs?) to the nose cone to see if I can get below 12K.

How about adding a functional payload like a camera? 😉

Doug

Doug, I was thinking along those lines. If you want to suggest a video camera that I can put in it, I'll do it. I also need to know how you are splitting the optics or mirroring the images.

what fun that would be!

Well. well, well... I just happen to have an Intimidator 5 sitting out in the garage....

Bruce, would you mind weighing those components for me? The Performance Rocketry documentation has that unaltered kit listed as 13 pounds unloaded, but my Rocksim calculates it out to 32 pounds fully loaded. Somethings not right. I don't think my avionics, aeropack adaptors, chutes and M1400 weigh 19 pounds.

Mike, you just insulted Doug. He uses 16mm FILM, not CCD video. And come MHM Friday Night at the Movies, you will watch his movies with absolute awe; the quality is unsurpassed. Though others use video cameras and will guide you on that. Conway and Art are ones that come to mind.

I come in at 12 pounds and a few ounces with RockSim without a motor. It will vary slightly as you go along. For an N2440, I come in at 32 pounds fully loaded. Trust me, that's light. My L3 was approximately 50 lbs. fully loaded, and that's relatively light. Others weigh in about 70 lbs. Mike, wait until you get your components and weigh them yourself. Take others' measurements into consideration, but do them yourself. Not that I won't do it.

Mike, it's going to be between you and your TAPs. However, be aware that not many TAPs will give you a go ahead at the speed you're trying to move and TAP-shopping is very seriously frowned upon. Experience is what is respected in this hobby, not getting your L3 quicker than anyone else. It isn't a competition.

The North site is unavailable until the April launch and even then we require USFS permission. If the site is too wet, we may not get to launch in April - on the other hand we sometimes launch at the North Site in March if conditions are right and USFS is in a good mood. Tripoli Colorado doesn't launch at Hartsel until late April IF the weather cooperates. To go elsewhere is going to mean Arizona, Kansas or Texas or even further away and you'll have to get to know the appropriate people and find a TAP who can be involved both BEFORE construction begins AND who can be present to witness the flight. Tall order if you're not already involved in the local club where you plan to fly.

I know you're going great guns, but read the Tripoli L3 requirements - Construction CANNOT begin until your TAP signs off on the detailed design documents and data capture. Some TAPs insist one witnessing the bird under construction as you progress. Some barely glance at the bird, but that's a horrible TAP who should be removed from the role.

The two most experienced TAPs for Colorado are James Russell and John Wilke and Wilke is currently living in Iowa. Art Hoag and Conway are also both excellent TAPs, but live in the Fort Collins area. The other Colorado TAPs I know of have rarely been out to NCR launches and have moved on to other hobbies for the most part.

Good luck to you Mike, but really - take some time to breath and learn about what you're doing. There is far, far more to this hobby and an L3 cert than building and flying 2 rockets. By the way, if your chute did not deploy, you did NOT qualify for your L2 - at least for Tripoli. NAR is a bit looser on the rules so I'm assuming Joe certified you for NAR and not Tripoli. Tripoli will rescind your cert if they find that the bird did not fly according to predicted flight profile.

Warren

PS: Accidentally exceeding the waiver can shut the club's waiver down for good. TRA and NAR insurance will not be in effect if the flight exceeds the waiver and this club would very likely lose one of the best waivers in the country. You might have a bunch of guys chasing you with flaming torches and pitchforks if that occured. However, the RSO at the time of your cert attempt will likely refuse your launch if the simmed altitude gets much over 75% of the waiver - at least they should.

Doug, I was thinking along those lines. If you want to suggest a video camera that I can put in it, I'll do it. I also need to know how you are splitting the optics or mirroring the images.

Mike, you just insulted Doug. He uses 16mm FILM, not CCD video.

No offense taken but Bruce is correct, I only shoot film. And no offense intended but it doesn't take a lot of insight to stick a video camera in a rocket and turn it on before flying. I really not trying to be insulting but I'm just pointing out that if you use a video camera, hook it up to you TV and look at the image to directly adjust the camera, mirror, openings, whatever to get the view you want. It is a lot harder to adjust the various factors described when you don't have a live image to guide you.

Mike, my preference is to "hang" the camera off the side of the rocket at an angle. It's draggy so it's not for altitude attempts but it sounds like you're wanting to lower your expected altitude. I have used mirrors but then you must use a telephoto lens. By the way, my lightest high speed movie cameras weighs at least 5 pounds and are made out of steel and aluminum so I have weight penalty compared to video cameras. Of course I've lawn darted them in and the film survives...

Doug

Experience is what is respected in this hobby, not getting your L3 quicker than anyone else. It isn't a competition.

Mike, Warren's right; it isn't a competition. We leave the blood and guts, get-there-first mentality at work. This is an individual journey in a fantastic hobby that encompasses physics, chemistry, biology, etc. At the end of my L3, Conway said, "Look!" It was a horned lizard in the grass; first time I ever saw one out there. The prairie is a beautiful place. This is something Joe Hinton rightfully stresses: HAVE FUN! We celebrate with friends' failures, successes, and each of us learns from it. If you were to find TAP's who would "give" you the L3, what would it mean? Without the respect of your peers, it really doesn't mean anything. I think I have the respect of most of my peers. I will win the rest over in time. John Wilke, JamesR, Conway--who carried my rocket back single-shoulderly, Jon Scuba, Joe Hinton, Art Hoag, Doug, Bob Messner, Mark Lionberger, Ken Plattner, and other friends shook my hand. THAT meant everything to me. When Joe Hinton said his famous words, "Nicely done," well, that made my day. It was a day that will always be burned into my brain. Although, Art was right when he said that I wouldn't remember much of it. Ha! Thank goodness Nadine had her camera ready and Dave1 had his camera running! It really was intimidating, but the friends at my side made it fun. It really was a BLAST! I really hope that yours will be!

I take my kids for the launch (thats me). But they find every thing else out there as much and more entertaining. 😉

scott e

Very good, Scott. I keep seeing new critters each time I go. I remember Oktoberfest '05, and at the time I was out looking over the cliffs to the north for the upper section and handmade chute of a failed L1 attempt that went up, up, and away, and I could hear the rockets just blasting off behind me, I spun around, and said to myself, "I'm home!" Ha!

Mike as I said in my PM I am willing to work with you through the process of getting your L3, lets talk Saturday. I will be there early, 11am but will have to leave early as well.

to add to what everyone else has said. first the Atlas site is limited to K's do to safe distances. You have been there, the safe distance for a K is about half way to the N/S road and the pad. I am not sure when the last K was flown there but when we did everyone on that end of the parking lot had to move back to the safe distance for the flight, leaving our cars, rockets and all behind to watch the flight.

So based on that launch site February is out.

Mike on your L2, you understanding the requirements for your cert in your opinion did you meet the requirements? If you have not read the requirements you can go to the same links that Conway pointed out re view them and let me know if you have any questions. I was not there and I have not talked to Joe or you so I am not wanting to second guess anyone without the facts.

None of us want to impede you in your quest but I think we all would like to make sure that what every you decide to do you do it safely. We are here to make sure that you can demonstrate the knowledge and skills to design, build, fly and recover a rocket at the highest level. Whether you slow down like some have recommended or if you stay full steam ahead you are not likely to be able to go through the process in as short of time as you would like.

Mike I would really like to talk to you, please give me a call some time this week, I get home after 630pm