Con,

I'll bite and see if we can rejuve the thread. EX/Research seems kind of like pornography: some find it really objectionable while others can't get enough. Its a personal choice.

I come from the 60's in mod rocketry and read all the Estes stuff and G Harry about the grave dangers of homemade motors. When I first heard people were making APCP motors three years ago I shuddered. My reaction was based on out of date information. Most of the basement bomber accidents, some of which maimed or worse, were primitive efforts, usually involving some combo of BP, match heads, CO2 cartridges, and pipes.

Then I got some education. I met James Russell and watched a batch of wimpy red made. With his help I made some myself. I read McCreary, Sutton, and others. Made the pilgrammage to Balls. Joined a few forums where I could ask any stupid question under the sun and get good answers from folk like Pat G. Went up to Hartsel a few times. If there was any danger, I caused it, 😳 but the only catos I've seen up there, were things like snap rings not being seated properly, which of course can happen to any load. I guess my point is until you have taken the time and effort to see what "EX" is about, its easy to assume the worst--a bunch of maniacs at the devil's workshop. Far from it, its usually individuals who know exactly what they are about, using very safe procedures, with well characterized materials.

The NAR is stuck. Unlike TRA, it has membership into the single digits agewise and needs to look out for their welfare. It was also founded during a time when lots of mishaps were costing the hands and eyes of american youth gone space crazy. It succeeded at nearly eliminating these, and has compiled an astonishing safety record since. It did so thru a safety code that absolutely forbid making or altering commercially available motors. Is it out of step in todays times? Absolutely.

Will it change in the forseeble future? Maybe. But it still has the issue of minor members with which to contend, and a lot of institutional inertia/habit.

So the challenge of dually sanctioned clubs like ours or Tripoli-Colarado comes down to trying to meet all needs. T-C is definitely an extreme. Most everyone rolls their own propellant, are L3's and have an area of great technical expertise. (I would be an exception here having just learned which end of a screwdriver works best). But what they do so very well is offer a very balanced launch schedule that affords the guy with a newly made Estes kit, a chance to come out and launch it.

In the same spirit, it would seem to me reasonable that NCR extend the same opportunity to Research flyers. Not half the schedule as T-C does, even when the two can now me mixed on research days. Joe H has been great in working with the CERG group and sharing equipment, the site itself, etc. Last Novembers Coyote Hunt was a stunning success--maybe one of the best non 3 dayers in recent memory. Lets grant these full sponsorship and add Research days to MHM and OF. Could be Friday, could be Sunday.

And while we are at it, lets bend a little the other direction and host some NAR contests. We have a site to die for and I feel for CRASH, Cosrocs, etc. Not to the exclusion of other regular launch activities, but putting a w/e aside or two where these guys can strut their stuff.

JS

Ex/Research is just that, pushing the envelope. It won't happen on Saturday when we have a great number of parents with kids, but Friday or Sunday, it would be great. NCR is NAR and TRA. If TRA says it's okay, then go for it. Personally, I've never been to an Ex launch and would really like to see some Ex rockets roar off the prairie. The only operational problems that I can see is when to launch certified, Estes, and Ex in a MHM or Oktoberfest flow of things. Can be done though, IMO.

Bruce, As I understand you havent been around the "EX" world let me give you some info that may help you.

First what we do is not Ex or Experimental. Thus the change of the name from that to the current Research used name. Cause it is just that. All the propellants that we in this end of the hobby are using are actually very well documented and clasifed motors and propellants. The stuff like Wimpy Red or Wayside White or even the Tiger Tail or even the ANCP have all been used lots and for sometime. So really al the experimental work has allready been done with it. We are just re-using those formulas.

This is one of the big reasons why this style of rocketry is so much safer then most give credit. Also the number of failures are actually equal or less then those ive seen on comercial loads done.

I got started in EX/Research about 4 years ago. I started with ANCP propellants by John Wickman. the actual science was allready done all I had to do was mimic it. I could make alterations to some things but still the same propellant just under different conditions.

I understand and belive that Staurday of that event should belong to the majority of the hobby the folks that will make tons of flights. But on Sunday I think that we should have no problem making it research. Also BTW you can fly Comercial motors at a TRA sanctioned Research launch. But I would limit it to impulse H and above. It all can be done even if done with the away pads. But no Estes stuff on that day

Ex/Research is just that, pushing the envelope. It won't happen on Saturday when we have a great number of parents with kids, but Friday or Sunday, it would be great. NCR is NAR and TRA. If TRA says it's okay, then go for it. Personally, I've never been to an Ex launch and would really like to see some Ex rockets roar off the prairie. The only operational problems that I can see is when to launch certified, Estes, and Ex in a MHM or Oktoberfest flow of things. Can be done though, IMO.

Why do you say the ex is pushing the envelope? Just because we make motors we are now pushing the envelope. How do you know? You said it yourself you have never been to an ex launch. Have you ever seen a rocket come in ballistic without a chute? Have you seen one come in on the flight line and go though a car ( I have seen pictures of that very thing)? Just as dangerous. Think about that during a MHM launch with all those kids. Rocketry is dangerous. If a motor was to cato, in most cases it happens right on the pad or just a couple of hundred feet in the air, the pads are far enough away that no danger or damage would come to anyone on the flight line. In other words I would be more worried about a rocket coming in hot than I would be about an ex motor cato.

Most people don't understand research so they just don't want anything to do with it. They say it is dangerous without actual data because they are scared or don't really know what they are talking about.

Think about spiders, nobody likes them because they hear stories about people getting bit by them and look ugly because they are hairy and have eight eyes so they just step on them without really understanding the spider. As time goes on and more and more people understand research, it becomes better understood and people will see that with diligences and caution that it can be as safe as commercial. My opinion is that it more safe. People at ex launches are more aware of what is going on . They are usually less people at a launch to get hurt etc.

Just to echo what Mike said as it is a common misperception--Research activities comprise a spectrum of aims and objectives just like commercial rocketry. Balls is on one end of the spectrum, but even there the majority of flights use well characterized and tested propellants--whats
EXtreme are the sizes of the rocket and altitudes/velocities. One flight went to 93K.

The far more common and pedestrian use of research loads are by guys like myself who follow well characterized recipes, and use software to make sure the grain geometry allows for safe operating pressures. Thats about the major risk--having too much surface area lit for the gasses to get out the nozzle causes it to go bang.

If you understand this simple concept, have access to good scales and a mixer, follow directions and amounts exactly, and take great care in avoiding voids while packing, you have a product that should be every bit as trustworthy as any made by AMW or AT.

My motives were initially economic as dropping several a few Benji's for a flight just isn't something I'm able to do on a routine basis. But it is an interesting aspect of rocketry in its own right, and I look forward to expanding my repertoire of recipes, just as soon as I have thoroughly "mastered" one and better appreciate the effects of scaling, etc.

For people who just want to get their feet wet, there are some vendors who market premixed 2 part products--basically just mix and pack. Also T-C usually has a motor making "party" in the spring where you can just watch or help with a batch that you can fly the next day.

John S

I'm all in favor of adding a Research day to MHM and Okfest, again I vote for Sunday. Friday and Saturday are getting big and with everyone packing up and leaving Sunday things are a bit slower.

The interesting thing about the research days I've attended is that I see fewer CATOs and other motor related issues than at a commercial launch. The really cool thing that never gets mentioned is that if I didn't tell you, you wouldn't be able to tell if you were at a research launch. You'd just think there were a bunch of redlines going off.

dave2

The other cool thing is at research launches even if you don't roll your own - if you have a rocket someone probably has a reload for you. And I second that I've seen less issues at research launches than commercial by far.

Edward

Now that TC has 2 years of “Research” under our belt we can speak with experience, Edward and Dave are right. We have only had 1 motor failure in flight that has a research motor. We had a manufacture demo fail and several commercial motors fail but none were an issue. As long as everyone is fallowing the rules and safety guidelines you won’t or no more then a commercial motor failure.

I find that we are getting more people interested and they are taking things real serious and taking their time and asking lots of questions. We do not have unknown people just showing up trying to fly things. We have a very close group with a lot of knowledge that is being sheared but we also do not have everyone doing the same things. We have several people using a hand full of formulas and then we also have several people using the tried and true formula. We also have several that are working on their own stuff that is still in the design phase. I think it will help challenge people more and it also brings people together shearing information, resources and knowledge. The people that you should be afraid of is hiding in their basements cooking things up in secrecy (better know as the basement bomber), not saying being secretive is a bad thing but you know what to expect from an individual if they are shearing info and keeping people up to date or at lest talking about what they are doing. If all know what others are working on we have less surprises and a lot of fun!!! And thats all we have at our TC launches, why should he have all the fun;)

Well put and exactly my belief. The best thing I have always belived is for the sharing of info. It will do nothing wrong to do so. Its not like most formulas are really all that secret anymore. Besides an open and up front person to me is a much more trustable source of recognition of what is going on in the group. People really should put aside their fears of Research as it really and truely is not any more or any less dangerous to say when done by the rules and beliefs that we as the group have followed. In fact I think that most the Research are even more over cautious and saftey concerned then at Comercial launches thus is what makes them even safer. Ive seen MANY more comercial loads cato or burn thru or event failures in recovery by the way which is more dangerous then any motor going bad. The possibillities for danger and accidents from Balistic or bad recovery is more inherant then anything we do in this hobby besides drive to the launch sites as more people are injured or killed by car accidents. Just my thoughts out loud but if you are worried about attending an EX/Reserach launch, Remember this. The dangers of traveling to a comercial launch are higher. The Dangers at a Comercial launch are just the same if not higher due to a more of what I belive laxed enviroment with more people. Its a part of the hobby. we accept that risk if we want to do so. Besides where did most motor manufactures like AMW oR RATT or Contrail or Ripper hybrids or even Kosdon and Loki come from. They are EX/research people and all that makes a comercial motor a non-research motor is some body like TRA and NAR to certify them as ready for consumable sale.

"off soapbox mode"

Thanks.

Con.

Well put. I mean this stuff is not nitro, under the worst conditions goes bang from over pressurization, much like a soda can in a freezer. But it's not a self propogating explosion in its own right. Usually things pop off to vent the excess pressure. I know of no instance where a reasonably prepared APCP propellant became a "grenade" spewing shrapnel, etc at high velocities.

For those with misgivings, stand back 😆 I've seen a small number of ex launches compared to many who posted on this thred--maybe a few hundred. The only time I felt scared was on the range of Balls, 2005. Jim Amos and many crew were setting up the wimpy Q. While doing so. a smaller rocket was launched closer into te crowd. The motor worked fine. Just thr rocket came apart and heavy objects rained down. Lots of birds that day suffered wind shear failures.

My point is like everyone's: rocketry is dangerous, period. Big rockets more so! Extreme projects even more so. But the difference between Ex and Commersh is not great. But observe the range safety rules!! Thats what key in our enerprise.

John S

Given that we have over 85% of the club either for Research launches or positively disposed towards them and only 13% against, I think the results of the vote at the annual meeting are pretty clear. NCR IS a Tripoli prefecture and it's high time we recognize that fact and start sanctioning Research launches. These will not conflict with our regularly scheduled monthly launches but will be in addition to them.

Personally, I want to thank all those who partipated in the online poll here on the site. With over 118 replies, this has been our most well-responded to poll.

Warren

It will be nice to start having research launches up north, it will open the door for a lot of things for a lot of people. I hope that this will do to NCR what it has done to T-C, we have a real great club up there and they are all close and talk about things and just seem more family like then NCR is today. NCR was like that when I first started flying up there but has changed over the years.

JamesR

I must admit I like seeing that people as per the poll are more for research. Really it in all honesty can brig really good things.

People should not think of Reserach as a regresive step but a forward step into the next level.

Someone refresh my memory--I know its been posted before, but bear with me as I want to have all my ducks in a row: for the sake of argument, we get a Research day or two during the upcoming year. Also we have the call-in 30K waiver, is there any difference in simmed altitudes one has to present to TRA BOD for commercial vs research if its over 25k.
JS