A section is a square mile - 640 acres. Currently we have a waiver to a certain altitude, but it also presupposes a certain diameter circle with no house or buildings and no road above a certain traffic level. Our Atlas site is altitude limited due to the proximity of Highway 14 for instance. The big question would be what about the land surrounding this Section. To have an equivalent waiver might require 2 1/2 miles in diameter from a central point. We would need permission from 100% of the landowners in that circle. With our goal of increasing the waiver even higher, we might need as much as 5 or 6 miles diameter. That's relatively easy with BLM and grasslands or other federally managed lands but in land dominated by private ownership it can be difficult. Of course with TRA and NAR insurance, it's a lot easier sell to landowners, but still... there is a helluva lot of contact and politicking that would have to go on.

This is a great thing to pursue. Not to say anyone needs to worry about our current site, but it is always good to have alternatives.

Warren

Thanks, that gives me something to work with.

In thinking about it, we would need permission for 9 contiguous sections with the launch site in the middle in order to have our 25K waiver. Of course an ideal 50K waiver would probably require 16 sections and possibly more.

W

I could probably take care of the 50k waiver needs, but we would have to call ourselves the SE Colorado Rocketry club. My accountant has a several K acre family ranch in SE CO. I'm not so interested in a name change or moving, so I think our current location is quite nice....

Although, an annual big boys toys launch would be fun.

I could probably take care of the 50k waiver needs, but we would have to call ourselves the SE Colorado Rocketry club. My accountant has a several K acre family ranch in SE CO. I'm not so interested in a name change or moving, so I think our current location is quite nice....

Although, an annual big boys toys launch would be fun.

That would be sweet. Do you know what the recovery terrain looks like?

Well, I haven't given up on our current sites quite yet. NCR's track record with the USFS has been outstanding and very pro-active. I have a hard time thinking we've come to a deadend. However, new launch sites are always of interest and with the advances in recovery locational devices, sometimes the terrain isn't an issue, as long as the habitation requirements can be met on the waiver criteria. And just because it is wide open space on the ground doesn't necessarily mean it's wide open up above. Air routes and traffic patterns keep changing - that's part of the equation that keeps this hobby from becoming boring.

Well, I haven't given up on our current sites quite yet.

Nor have I. The hours that I have spent camping there and looking for rockets have made me appreciate that land in ways that I never expected. I'd love to keep flying rockets there for years. I'm also very grateful for the work that you have done in keeping up the relationships with the authorities so that we can keep flying there. But I can't help but have my ears perk up when I hear about the possibility of a sympathetic land owner with enough contiguous area for a 50 kft waiver.

Think SE or NW Colorado on Grasslands or BLM land. Somewhere on the web I saw a map with all the major air traffic corridors in the Continental US - that's the map you want to read between the lines of so to speak. Right now we're actually on an approach path to DIA so it is pretty damn nice that we have the waiver and windows that we do. Thanks to Joe...

I'd also think that looking in SE Wyoming and Western Nebraska might be productive. I believe Frontier Aerospace had a 100K waiver - at least in process - up at Chugwater. Of course they have apparently gone dormant, but the waiver might still be good. and their location is only another 45-60 minutes further than the north site for folks coming from Denver.

Might be nice to have a place to fly big toys once or twice a year.

Warren

Warren,

Those folks up at Chugwater wanted a standing waiver to 100,00 feet.
Unfortunately Chugwater is under a major East to West transcontenental corridor. The Air Traffic manager that deals with waivers said he would be willing to allow a pre-scheduled one shot deal if we wanted. He said he would assign a air traffic controller strictly to that event. I passed that on the folks in Ghugwater but I have never heard from them since. If the club wants to research other possible launch areas, all I need is coordinates and I can find out how "messy" waivers might be.

Well, I haven't given up on our current sites quite yet.

Nor have I. The hours that I have spent camping there and looking for rockets have made me appreciate that land in ways that I never expected. I'd love to keep flying rockets there for years. I'm also very grateful for the work that you have done in keeping up the relationships with the authorities so that we can keep flying there. But I can't help but have my ears perk up when I hear about the possibility of a sympathetic land owner with enough contiguous area for a 50 kft waiver.

From what he said it was common prairie and rolling hills. I sent him an email yesterday, but this is his busy time of the year now - he's a tax accountant. So, not sure just what the situation out there is.

I can say this, I would rather hit WY for a big event than go east. It's still closer for those of us in the Westminster to Boulder area.

If I were looking East, I know for sure I can put something together in the NW KS area (Hill City to Plainville - North of Hays). My Dad and his friends have all kinds of access, plus the big landowners I know with monster ranches/farms.... But again, that's a good 5 hr drive from here and I'm not seeing anyone that would want that.

For a 100K or even 50K waiver, I'd drive 5 hours... at least as soon as I have a bird finished for that altitude.

W

Some of us beer been known to drive a day and a half each way for a waiver like that.

I was involved in the migration from the old Tripoli Rocky Mountain site to the current site. The hours, efforts, and issues on changing a site are monumental. The old site was very good - though one problematic relationship with a rancher forced a move.

We probably looked at a dozen proposed sites and only our current site was fractionally as good as the old site.

It is *essential* that we do all we possibly can to make this site work. 20K/35K makes 98% of the country's flyers insanely jealous. For the day or two a year we need to go above 35K, I'm fine with a trip to Black Rock.

Bottom line, we need to make this site work...

Then it will be absolutely critical that folks are respectful, courteous, professional what have you and listen to Jon Halverson explain the process of our permit application woes and Please don't shoot the messenger protocol has to be followed. The folks that work for the USFS put their pants on one leg at a time, just like most folks, and deserve the opportunity to heard. Poignant questions certainly are encouraged but let's be nice about it. I still very firmly believe we have been chasing this permit the correct way and that ultimately, NCR will be allowed to resume operations and continue our stewardship of the prairie launch sites and loft the small and large hobby rockets we love to see fly.

BTW - remember what was once said about climbing mountains. To reach the peak of any great mountain takes perseverance, courage and a willingness to take the extra steps necessary to recover from slips and stumbles and falls. Actually, I guess I said that. What I was trying to explain is that to climb a mountain, you have to go to the mountain. To fly a rocket, you have to go to the rocket range. Anyway...